ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by smallbrownprivates

Taking a "its all a conspiracy" line when the facts don't fit prejudices is disappointing and a little weak. you're better than that

I would say its not prejudices displayed by the Ugly one. Having worked with them for a while recently they are not the ultimate soldiers that their PR machine will have you believe. Compared to a normal Inf Bn, they are expensive to recruit, take longer to train (extra 6 months), have massive cultural and language issues (requiring extra support and education elements).

Their equipment care and management is to put it mildly, shocking, requiring extra non Gurkha military support. Because of the cultural differences to marriage, they requirement for MQ's compared to UK troops is around 85% to around 25% and add to that the massive support network that is required for the families. Then there are the relatives coming over for a few months here and there and staying far past the required return date with medical issues (you try and get an appointment at the Med centre in Brunei). Health tourism, they have it nailed.

Discipline within the unit was not as expected, idle, indolent, insolent and corrupt (JPA ninja's to a man). An officer class who does not know the meaning of the word "No" and who have fallen for their own mystique and a promotion system for the toms that has far more to do with caste and family rather than ability. A discipline system where it is kept in house hides the true extent of the issue.

After attending a meeting where the Bn could not identify exactly how many soldiers thay had on strength and where they all were (I expected ghost soldiers in a 3rd world army, not the British Army) it brought home to me what a monster we had allowed to be created.

The Bde at the end of the day has failed to turn off their recruiting taps to match the changes to their TACOS, that is why they are severly over strength. Add to that the extra cost burdens caused by the above and its pretty evident that where we used to get 2 x Bn's (of a unit that would not measure up to most of the county Bns I have worked with) for the price of one UK Bn, its now 1 Bn of JG for the price of 2 Bn of UK Inf. They have priced themselves out of the market and set themselves up for a big fall. I am certainly no fan of them having had to work with them, but do recognise that they do have some outstanding soldiers. Unfortunately, they are by far the minority hidden amongst the less than mediocre.

Originally Posted by jimmys_best_mate

No matter how big the Army is, dumping fully manned battalions with over subscribed recruitment in order to keep undermanned battalions stuffed with foreigners anyway in order to make it deployable is madness. If a battalion/regiment can't recruit enough to keep it going then it's time to forget about tradition, history or how that battalion did in the Indian Mutiny and let them die.

How are JG unintegrated?

I think that question is better phrased how are they integrated? After all they recruit, train and serve almost exclusively in their own language, culture and apart from those on courses or the reinforcement companies (something UK Bns were doing in 1983 for op Banner, 1KOSB provided a company to 1LI) they never integrate with the rest of the Army.
Keeping them seperate means their particular skills arent best used by british units on ops, if that meant some units would be lead at section level on the whole by JG Jncos then perhaps it would be a good thing?
Anyway as the answer I wanted to put was neatlt put already I have copied it;
Thanks to Sapper145
"I would say its not prejudices displayed by the Ugly one. Having worked with them for a while recently they are not the ultimate soldiers that their PR machine will have you believe. Compared to a normal Inf Bn, they are expensive to recruit, take longer to train (extra 6 months), have massive cultural and language issues (requiring extra support and education elements). Their equipment care and management is to put it mildly shocking requiring extra non Gurkha military support. Because of the cultural differences to marriage, they requirement for MQ's compared to UK troops is around 85% to around 25% and add to that the massive support network that is required for the families. Then there are the relatives coming over for a few months here and there and staying far past the required return date with medical issues (you try and get an appointment at the Med centre in Brunei). Health tourism, they have it nailed. Discipline within the unit was not as expected, idle, indolent, insolent and corrupt (JPA ninja's to a man). An officer class who does not know the meaning of the word "No" and who have fallen for their own mystique and a promotion system for the toms that has far more to do with caste and family rather than ability. A discipline system where it is kept in house hides the true extent of the issue. After attending a meeting where the Bn could not identify exactly how many soldiers thay had on strength and where they all were (I expected ghost soldiers in a 3rd world army, not the British Army) it brought home to me what a monster we had allowed to be created. The Bde at the end of the day has failed to turn off their recruiting taps to match the changes to their TACOS, that is why they are severly over strength. Add to that the extra cost burdens caused by the above and its pretty evident that where we used to get 2 x Bn's (of a unit that would not measure up to most of the county Bns I have worked with) for the price of one UK Bn, its now 1 Bn of JG for the price of 2 Bn of UK Inf. They have priced themselves out of the market and set themselves up for a big fall. I am certainly no fan of them having had to work with them, but do recognise that they do have some outstanding soldiers. Unfortunately, they are by far the minority hidden amongst the less than mediocre."

Originally Posted by ugly

I think that question is better phrased how are they integrated? After all they recruit, train and serve almost exclusively in their own language, culture and apart from those on courses or the reinforcement companies (something UK Bns were doing in 1983 for op Banner, 1KOSB provided a company to 1LI) they never integrate with the rest of the Army.

Doesn't that go for the rest of the infantry too? How often do Paras integrate with the rest of the Army aside from courses or the ones who end up as DS at training establishments? You don't see many Paras providing section commanders to other regiments either (and you probably don't see many Duke of Lancs providing section commanders in the Yorks either). How often does any infantry regiment integrate with the rest of the Army outside of courses or something like a BRF where soldiers from multiple regiments are selected for a bespoke unit?

Originally Posted by jimmys_best_mate

Doesn't that go for the rest of the infantry too? How often do Paras integrate with the rest of the Army aside from courses or the ones who end up as DS at training establishments? You don't see many Paras providing section commanders to other regiments either (and you probably don't see many Duke of Lancs providing section commanders in the Yorks either). How often does any infantry regiment integrate with the rest of the Army outside of courses or something like a BRF where soldiers from multiple regiments are selected for a bespoke unit?

I would say that the Paras are a fine excample of integration by achivement. Meet the criteria and you can serve, JG did albeit in a reinforcement company and the woodentops for a long time have had a platoon but I suspect thats so the Paras dont realise its not only them that cant spell. Look at SFSG for a fine example of unit integration. you arent exckluded by capbadge at all.
You really are going to have to try harder to find an example of a UK unit that isnt integrated outside of JG!

Originally Posted by ugly

I would say that the Paras are a fine excample of integration by achivement. Meet the criteria and you can serve, JG did albeit in a reinforcement company and the woodentops for a long time have had a platoon but I suspect thats so the Paras dont realise its not only them that cant spell. Look at SFSG for a fine example of unit integration. you arent exckluded by capbadge at all.
You really are going to have to try harder to find an example of a UK unit that isnt integrated outside of JG!

If you're counting that as integration, Royal Signals soldiers can be posted into Gurkha Signal Squadrons and Gurkhas can be posted into Royal Signals squadrons.

Outside of 30 odd Guards who end up as part of 3 Para (I believe) as a historical anomaly, how integrated are any of the infantry regiments? You join the Scots Guards and the chances are you'll stay in the Scots Guards (less possible attachments to training units and for courses) until you're dined out of the mess after 22 years. Aside from possibly bringing units up to strength for tours (which the Gurkhas don't need as they're overmanned) or forming a battlegroup (which there's nothing to stop the Gurkhas doing just like any other infantry regiment) you'll always be under the command of the Scots Guards.

OK Jimmy, lets put it simply, could you (assuming you're not a Nepali of the preferred caste) join the Gurkha Rifles as a Tom? Answer's no because you are of the wrong race, therefore it is a racially exclusive non integrated organisation, and, according to all the laws regarding discriminatory practices, illegal.

If you're fit enough to pass Airborne selection, no matter what colour, creed, or religion you are you'll be accepted, same for the other examples you quoted. For the rest of the British Army to turn anyone down on the grounds of race would have them in a world of shit - spearheaded by the people who go all warm and fuzzy over the Gurkhas.

Originally Posted by Busterdog

OK Jimmy, lets put it simply, could you (assuming you're not a Nepali of the preferred caste) join the Gurkha Rifles as a Tom? Answer's no because you are of the wrong race, therefore it is a racially exclusive non integrated organisation, and, according to all the laws regarding discriminatory practices, illegal.

Not like the FFL..??..rock up at the designated centre(katmandu..??) like PCo...pass the selection requirements(which are 'tough') and sign up..take it no 'whitey' has tried this very obvious route..??..so until this happens and 'whitey' gets turned down its all 'allegedly'..

N.B. thinking a little more..I presume its also a question of 'nationality' if your a Nepaleese(spelling) your OK, if not you don't qualify..bit like the POTUS job..so whitey also needs to get hitched to a Nepal woman...'simples'

Originally Posted by Sapper145

I would say its not prejudices displayed by the Ugly one. Having worked with them for a while recently they are not the ultimate soldiers that their PR machine will have you believe. Compared to a normal Inf Bn, they are expensive to recruit, take longer to train (extra 6 months), have massive cultural and language issues (requiring extra support and education elements). Their equipment care and management is to put it mildly shocking requiring extra non Gurkha military support. Because of the cultural differences to marriage, they requirement for MQ's compared to UK troops is around 85% to around 25% and add to that the massive support network that is required for the families.......

I'd like to see a comparison of sums from a reliable source before we assume the recruitment of JG is expensive compared to home grown. After all I don't hear the recruitment centre in Nepal having to spunk millions on TV adverts only for their units to remain under manned unlike at home.

Your personal observations on working with JG conflict with my own experience. I could think of many units that struck me as being particularly crap at various things yet JG didn't strike me as being the worse in any department. I’m not aware of RGR failing any specific audit or any type of fit for role assessment. They obviously failed to dazzle you yet they seemingly manage to tick the boxes as far as the Army is concerned. In contrast I know of at least one Line Bn who recently had to re-show on PDT. God forbid we ever sink low enough where we are seriously contemplating slashing effective INF units because of the % of manpower that happen to be married or not. Talk about scraping the barrel. Jesus wept, we really do have no hope for the future if that train of thought is going to dictate the future Infantry ORBAT. You couldn’t make it up.....only in the backward thinking British Army eh.

IIRC JG's ITC course lasts 36 weeks. In comparison Para’s get churned out in 32, Guards 28 and Line Infantry 26 weeks. I’d be interested to compare the cost and time effectiveness between giving RGR an extra 8 weeks to sort their shit out and the approach that sees Fijians and Caribbean’s consistently being back squaded. Last time I was up there, ITC was backlogged with large numbers of broken Foreigners who simply were not up to the task of passing ITC in the time frame allotted. Just take a quick look into Hook Coy or Rehab and count the foreigners. Not to mention that many of them don’t even "fit in" with their units whenever they do finally manage to pass out. I’d gladly oblige RGR the extra 8 weeks training time it takes them to knock out trained soldiers if it ensures they continue to have a fraction of the wastage that clogs up the system over at Vimey bks.

To suggest that a single RGR Bn actually costs double that of a Brit Bn is debateable. Can you point me in the direction of a credible source? I was under the impression that the Brunei based Bn has it's running costs covered by the Sultan, so if anything we should be ORBAT’d as 2x RGR Bns for the price of one.