ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by Boumer

We don't appear to have the money for expeditionary warfare right now!

Politician: We need to kick some Mugabe ass!
CDS: Yes, Sir.
Politican: Can we do it?
CDS: Yes, Sir. How far do you want to kick him?
Politican: How far can we go?
CDS: A) Cruise missile strike; B) that & HMS Ocean with AH-64s degrading the local army; C) that & 7,000 on the ground for 6m & no longer; D) that & New elections with the AU.

Originally Posted by Markintime

Only if there are no jobs available. In the twenties and thirties there was a huge work ethic yet people were starving because they couldn't find work. Without jobs a work ethic is useless.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. A work ethic and the social responsibility it develops is never wasted. There was no welfare system in place in the twenties and thirties.

ps you smell

I am very much for some kind of National Service. Being still in education my peers won't have the same point of view, but I believe it may deal with some issues in society.

While frontline duty should still be something for the volunteers, if all 18 year olds do something similar to phase 1 training, with the odd trip to brecon and whatnot for a year, it might help somewhere.

If they are a conscientious objector, or have real issues with getting a bit muddy, then some minor form of working with other public/ civil services might also do.

Originally Posted by Markintime

Only if there are no jobs available. In the twenties and thirties there was a huge work ethic yet people were starving because they couldn't find work. Without jobs a work ethic is useless.

In the twenties and thirties there was no welfare state as such either. Many potential employers, at all levels complain that the main component that is missing from applicants is the "right" attitude. Whatever anyone thinks about NS and whether it is military or civilian biased it did and would give those serving a way training in self discipline, attitude and personal development.
Whether there is work or not afterwards is a bland reason for not seriously consider the option. That will be the case whether they have had training or not and at least those who have been trained will be removed from sitting on their butt and doing nothing, maybe appreciate the welfare payouts that they are given more and be better citizens for the experience. It may also make them less unemployable because it will change their attitude to life.

Originally Posted by Markintime

Whilst I totally agree with you in principal the vast majority of young people do not approach authority in a way that would enable them to fit in with Military discipline.

I'm so sorry, that was kind of the point I was stumbling towards trying to make in my clumsy way!

I only base it on my experience of trying to exercise an office of authority as a peeler.

Ironically, with some of the young soldiers I have had to interview for civil criminal offences it is a reverese-shift.

I keep telling them they have rights! And that they must understand that they are not in a service enviroment, if they have the misfortune to end up in a civil police custody suite.

Contrast that with some of the 1% of the population I deal with 99% of the time who live in the twilight world of care and benefits. Some I feel sorry for; failed by parents, failed by an overburndened care services, and also failed by themeselves. They cannot abrogate all responsibility, however.

Something to help them put some framework of stability in their lives is a great idea. I just don't think it would be the British Army as a National Service concept, for the reasons that Markintime points out (accurately, in my opinion).

The generations of young men in the 40s, 50s and 60s were much more used to discipline than today's generation and they still created admin headaches

Totally agree on the difference in attitude. Crikey, could you just imagine the concept of rationing to youth (or indeed wider society) today!

I usually like Mr Self.

I know, he's been a junkie and all that but I like his dry laconic style with the Mr Sowerberry type appearance, good writer, good wit, good bloke by all accounts and hugely intelligent.

The last time this was seriously punted was in the 1980's by Thatcher.

I was told (rumour of course) that the CDS of that era told Maggie - in no uncertain terms - that as we had been a full time professional regular army since 1963 he could see no good coming out of becoming social workers for life's shite yet again.

The word was that Maggie STFU for once in her life.

Good drills to Self for the sentiment though.

Edited to add ; Training todays youth in weapons drills and maintenance, what a cracking idea.

Originally Posted by wm1965

Politician: We need to kick some Mugabe ass!
CDS: Yes, Sir.
Politican: Can we do it?
CDS: Yes, Sir. How far do you want to kick him?
Politican: How far can we go?
CDS: A) Cruise missile strike; B) that & HMS Ocean with AH-64s degrading the local army; C) that & 7,000 on the ground for 6m & no longer; D) that & New elections with the AU.

You missed repeated compulsory intelligent mobilisation of TA to support when step (d) requires presence of ZIMFOR for a bit longer than we thought!

(But I take your point)

Originally Posted by Markintime

Whilst I totally agree with you in principal the vast majority of young people do not approach authority in a way that would enable them to fit in with Military discipline. The resources tied up in making them comply or in punishing non-compliance would deplete the Army's ability to carry out it's current role. The generations of young men in the 40s, 50s and 60s were much more used to discipline than today's generation and they still created admin headaches. That does not mean that NS didn't turn out some superb soldiers, it most certainly did but for every superb soldier how many misfits were there?

The National Servicemen in my ships and army units were a good mix of characters, mainly good, one or two bad
and assuming replication across other RN/Army/RAF units at the time then I doubt as a percentage there was much difference in "admin headaches" than in the military at present. Certainly I cannot remember any drug use and even inebriation wasn't a big problem due in part to NS pay being so poor. [Perhaps my spec lens have become rose coloured with time but service life would have been a lot duller without them]