ARmy Rumour SErvice

**Markintime** · 15-05-2012, 10:06

Originally Posted by StickyEnd

I have denied that race is relevant, it isn't. This shit has nothing to do with race, culture yes, race no.

Where did I mention relevance? I said played a part, there is a difference.

**StickyEnd** · 15-05-2012, 10:10

Originally Posted by Markintime

Where did I mention relevance? I said played a part, there is a difference.

Can you explain that? I am damned if I can see how something "playing a part" could have no relevance.

**Chef** · 15-05-2012, 10:23

Originally Posted by Markintime

There was a representative of a care home interviewed and he was saying that they cannot lock these girls in so if they want to go out that's up to them. If this is true they may as well drop the 'care' bit from their title. Even the best brought up children become rebellious as they enter their teens. It's the time when you have to step up your parenting skills, not step away from them.

Watch the series 'Tracey Beaker' I know it is a children's prog, but the attitudes of both children and care workers seem to reflect the ones I've seen at my local school. It should answer that question for you.

**Markintime** · 15-05-2012, 10:31

Originally Posted by StickyEnd

Can you explain that? I am damned if I can see how something "playing a part" could have no relevance.

They targeted girls that were easy who were co-incidentally of another race so race played a part but not a relevant part. If there motive was to 'shame' all white women then race would have been relevant because their prime motive was racial but it wasn't, they just wanted sex. There culture and lack of education played a part and, although it is said that they may well have felt that white girls were easy they only targeted vulnerable ones which would downplay the suggestion that they considered all white girls as easy or even second class although they would have felt them as lesser than men because that is their culture but, in that, they aren't alone, it still persists to a lesser extent in our own. I have a feeling that this case has more to do with drugs than it does race. The biggest factor was possibly that they all worked in the fast food industry so they would see plenty of vulnerable, possibly inebriated girls coming into the shop.

**CaptainPlume** · 15-05-2012, 10:42

Originally Posted by Chef

Watch the series 'Tracey Beaker' I know it is a children's prog, but the attitudes of both children and care workers seem to reflect the ones I've seen at my local school. It should answer that question for you.

Pretty much what Winston Smith blogged about. He had no way to discipline the children in his care & even withholding the bribes they were paid to be compliant would end up with complaints about human rights being restricted, false accusations & so on.

While these girls in Rochdale were victims (it's bad enough having to live there) one wonders what the care staff could have done when a pissed up teenager spoiling for a fight starts lobbing chairs about & cannot be reasoned with or restrained...

**StickyEnd** · 15-05-2012, 10:58

Originally Posted by Markintime

They targeted girls that were easy who were co-incidentally of another race so race played a part but not a relevant part. If there motive was to 'shame' all white women then race would have been relevant because their prime motive was racial but it wasn't, they just wanted sex. There culture and lack of education played a part and, although it is said that they may well have felt that white girls were easy they only targeted vulnerable ones which would downplay the suggestion that they considered all white girls as easy or even second class although they would have felt them as lesser than men because that is their culture but, in that, they aren't alone, it still persists to a lesser extent in our own. I have a feeling that this case has more to do with drugs than it does race. The biggest factor was possibly that they all worked in the fast food industry so they would see plenty of vulnerable, possibly inebriated girls coming into the shop.

TBH, I think that race is pretty much irrelevant. Culture is different. Take a look at Asians in the UK, it is almost entirely Muslims who openly hate us. Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Taoists etc seem to have no problems.

Now I am not claiming that all Asian Muslims hate the UK. I am claiming that the vast majority of British Asians that declare a hatred of the UK are Muslims, I don't think that is a coincidence.

Race means damn near nothing. The largest genetic difference between any two humans is less that that between two chimps who live a few miles apart. We are all damn near identical biologically, culturally is different, we can be worlds apart on that.

**ex_colonial** · 15-05-2012, 14:55

Originally Posted by Markintime

I don't think that anyone has denied that race, religion and culture have played a part in this affair, have a read of the thread. However these crimes, although they contains elements of attitude towards the victim there is no evidence that points to these crimes being racially motivated. These men wanted young women for sex and they took the line of least resistance.

Drawing on your experience as a policeman how do you think this matter should be dealt with? I mean proper measures that you or any other policeman would expect to see happen and not just the usual immigrant hating Daily Mail reader codswallop you are inclined to come out with when it suits you.

Serious question I hope you'll give it a serious answer.

"MiT", My experience in Africa was somewhat different to the UK, we were a para military force dealing with, apart from the relatively few urban areas, where crime was much the same as in small UK towns, a very primitive culture, where believe it or not, Witchcraft, ritual Murder, cattle theft, poaching of protected game (Elephants, rare species of antelope etc) & cannibalism was still present!
However various friends & family were in various UK Police FORCES from S.Wales, Yorkshire, E Lancs & the Met! prior to the massive injection of Political correctness, diversity training and reducing the status from Forces charged with ENFORCING the law, to Services akin to social workers! The law SHOULD be applied equally to all, irrespective of race, creed or gender!
Unfortunately as others have said, too many senior ranks in the police & in the establishment seem to wish to apply special consideration and even the de facto condoning of various offences for many of the ethnic minorities as per the 3 somali women beating up a white woman shouting racial abuse! It is this thinking which has hindered impartial investigations into many crimes carried out by some minorities, this and the hordes of lawyers ever eager to swoop, with the help of over generous legal aid, & wave the race card or the human rights nonsense & claim huge ammounts of compensation for the often imagined grievances! My Step father, former D/Sgt & Father in Law, former C/Insp, must be spinning in their graves at the state of the mainly toothless & spineless Police organisations we have today, where ticking all the various diversity boxes is more important than detecting or preventing crime for fear of offending the sensibilities of certain ethnic groups!!

**Boumer** · 15-05-2012, 15:15

Originally Posted by CaptainPlume

Pretty much what Winston Smith blogged about. He had no way to discipline the children in his care & even withholding the bribes they were paid to be compliant would end up with complaints about human rights being restricted, false accusations & so on.

While these girls in Rochdale were victims (it's bad enough having to live there) one wonders what the care staff could have done when a pissed up teenager spoiling for a fight starts lobbing chairs about & cannot be reasoned with or restrained...

Having had to dip in and out of the shadow world that is care homes, I feel sorry for the staff that work there and try and help.

An interesting point of view on what we are discussing here.

Racialising sexual crimes - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

**jimmys_best_mate** · 15-05-2012, 17:13

Breaking news on the BBC that a Met officer has been charged with trying to organise a child sex offence.

**Markintime** · 15-05-2012, 17:17

Originally Posted by ex_colonial

"MiT", My experience in Africa was somewhat different to the UK, we were a para military force dealing with, apart from the relatively few urban areas, where crime was much the same as in small UK towns, a very primitive culture, where believe it or not, Witchcraft, ritual Murder, cattle theft, poaching of protected game (Elephants, rare species of antelope etc) & cannibalism was still present!
However various friends & family were in various UK Police FORCES from S.Wales, Yorkshire, E Lancs & the Met! prior to the massive injection of Political correctness, diversity training and reducing the status from Forces charged with ENFORCING the law, to Services akin to social workers! The law SHOULD be applied equally to all, irrespective of race, creed or gender!
Unfortunately as others have said, too many senior ranks in the police & in the establishment seem to wish to apply special consideration and even the de facto condoning of various offences for many of the ethnic minorities as per the 3 somali women beating up a white woman shouting racial abuse! It is this thinking which has hindered impartial investigations into many crimes carried out by some minorities, this and the hordes of lawyers ever eager to swoop, with the help of over generous legal aid, & wave the race card or the human rights nonsense & claim huge ammounts of compensation for the often imagined grievances! My Step father, former D/Sgt & Father in Law, former C/Insp, must be spinning in their graves at the state of the mainly toothless & spineless Police organisations we have today, where ticking all the various diversity boxes is more important than detecting or preventing crime for fear of offending the sensibilities of certain ethnic groups!!

Thanks for replying.

I whole heartedly agree with your sentiment as a principle but feel that there is still a need for pragmatism in its execution.

There just aren't enough police around to effectively control public order. As we saw last summer the police don't have sufficient numbers to launch an immediate response to public disorder. Therefore no arrest or operation can ignore the possible effect on the local community their actions may have. Since many communities are on a knife edge due to our inability to offer them the dream life they possibly desire. I don't just mean immigrant communities either. Even in my sleepy village almost every arrest is accompanied by the arrestee kicking off and then a few mates coming along to help him out. The security officers at the local uni wear stab vests! People wont accept responsibility for anything these days, least of all there own actions and are all too quick to lash out, probably because from cradle to then they've never had anyone tell them they can't do something.

The Brixton riots showed the Met that you cannot constantly and consistently come down hard on a community and expect that community to just accept it. Justice has to be dispensed swiftly and proportionately and should be spread equally around the whole community. The police did not make our society a multi-cultural one. I rather suspect that, had they been asked they would have opted for a melting pot but they are doing the best they can with what they've got. However, whether we want it or not we've got it so we have to make the best of it with the dwindling number of law enforcement officers we have left.