- 29-04-2012, 14:29 #41
1. You try putting our IT professionals at risk, then you get payed back in return. Just dont think we will just nod on everything your govt tries to do.
2. I was talking about UK and not you, or is your brain working overtime that it thinks up stuff even before I can think as what i would think. Next time , dont reply with "he would have said this" type of thinking?
3. And the IT companies stay in India for now and have not shifted to any other cheaper market. It wont in any near time. Because the people are skilled here. If by your logic, then there are several countries with cheaper labour than India but its only India which dominates the IT sector.
You also appear to have ignored my points on the cultural difficulties and attitudes that lead to so much Indian Apps development having to be reworked. I'd ask if you understood the question but seeing as you'd likely just smile and nod vigorously while thinking, "What the fuck does that all mean?"' I won't bother
And What the fuck is your problem if i use smileys?
Last edited by Mad Indian; 29-04-2012 at 14:44.UK- Goes to colonise and loot one quarters of the world and then complains about immigration and outsourcing
- 29-04-2012, 14:38 #42
Again, by that logic, we can ask our Govt to ban the investments(thats what this is about ;)) going to UK and the Imports to UK. You see we are a poor country and we cant afford to import from your country and lose investment to your country. So we are better off investing the money in India and Making the local manufacturer produce it than import it from England, or import it from the countries like France or Germany who dont make a fuss like this. As i said, Tit for tat. By that we can protect the Indian companies here, now can we do that?
Whilst it may be a good move for your average Indian IT graduate since, even on minimum wage, they'll earn far more in the UK than in India, and outsourcing multi-nationals, the UK is being shortchanged and the next generation of indigenous UK IT professionals will see themselves undercut by distinctly average IT workers from India who, in the majority of cases. will be in the visa system solely on the basis that they could stump up the cash to pay an agency fixer. Do you think this is a satisfactory situation? I would suggest that you take note of the unpleasant situation that has recently been highlighted in Southall, Greater London. Hundreds of Indian nationals are living rough in the area after entering the UK illegally or outstaying their visas. All had jobs at some time (either legally or on the black) but were undercut by even more desperate Indians and Bangladeshis who are working as manual labourers, waiters etc for the princely sums of £15 a day in many cases. What happens when the agencies become increasingly greedy (as they are want to do) and start paying less than minimum wage and reducing earnings to those that can be found in India? It benefits nobody, not Indian economic migrants, not indigenous IT workers in the UK, nor the UK economy.
In my opinion, the reason the Indians are so upset about the changes is that the options for graft and corruption, so representative of the Indian elite, may have been curtailed.UK- Goes to colonise and loot one quarters of the world and then complains about immigration and outsourcing
- 29-04-2012, 14:44 #43
And Such people are our concern and not your problem. You dont have to worry about that.
Also the total inability to report progress accurately? 'Of course it will be ready on time.' 'Are you sure?' 'Why, yes'. Right up to the deadline, when 'It will be ready tomorrow.' and tomorrow. and tomorrow. and tomorrow.UK- Goes to colonise and loot one quarters of the world and then complains about immigration and outsourcing
- 29-04-2012, 14:54 #44
- 29-04-2012, 15:00 #45
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
I work for a big software multinational. The company has offices in a wide variety of countries including India. Many of the Indian offices are in Bangalore (I've been there - and shit myself in the traffic...)
The general policy my company has vis a vis Indians (as far as I can tell) is:
- Use them for basic coding. Don't give them complex tasks to do.
- Maintain the 'intellectual/high cost' side of the operation in the US and Europe.
- Cherry pick the very best of the Indian employees and give them the opportunity to move to the US.
This model of doing the high volume/low skilled coding in India has three flaws:
- As was mentioned earlier, there can be a high cost of remediation.
- There is a high level of job turnover in India. As soon as an India employee gets enough on their CV to apply for a higher paid job, they're off. This means they gain a lot of superficial knowledge, but its not a deep knowledge.
- Inflation in India is running at about 10% long term. This is eroding the 'low cost' advantage of using India.
As such Indian people coming to the UK don't really impact on me.
As to the skill levels, I think they are on average lower in India, but there are exceptions. The developer I'm working with at the moment is a class act. Conversely, I've just helped out a developer in the US with information on some functionality. On a scale of 1 - 10 for knowledge, he's a Norway....
- 29-04-2012, 20:02 #46
- 29-04-2012, 21:03 #47
1. India does not have an IT industry in the pure sense. It has no IT R&D to speak of and Indian IT 'development' is mediocre at best . The Indian export market doesn't, on the whole, export cutting edge knowledge or talent. It exports bodies. Period. Saying that India has a IT industry is like saying that they have an aircraft industry because Gate Gourmet employs a predominantly Indian workforce to service airline catering. India provides, at best, services TO the IT industry in the UK.
2. The Indian Government is pissed that its 'talent' is being required to show a minimum of a Master's degree and a basic salary of £20,000+ in order to qualify for a 'professional' visa for the UK. Join the club, mate! My daughter has a First in software and architecture engineering from Imperial College. London and is working towards a PhD (part-time and at her own expense) in some unfathomably niche IT field. The multi-national she works for refuses to sponsor her studies or give her study leave but has her leading £multi-million development contracts. She routinely mentors her Indian colleagues in her spare time because a) they have nowhere near the skills she has to undertake the task in hand and b) she risks being fired for underperformance as a project leader as her charges are pretty much clueless for all the reasons PUBH has listed in his previous posts Her salary? £18000 a year. She was fortunate not to be forced to pay the new yearly fees of £9000 a year that are being introduced by the British Government but still has a student loan of £15000 to pay off. Had I not helped her out financially, she would be looking at paying back treble that. I'm not a rich man by any stretch of the imagination and I have been forced. like many Indian parents, to make sacrifices for my child'd education. However, she does have a degree from a top tier university which she got on merit and hard work, not a piece of paper from a 'private' technology conveyor belt in India based on how much she could pay the principal.
3. You talk of Indians being a cheap and good labour force. I agree. They are cheap and are abused by both agencies and multi-nationals. They are probably a good workforce because, between them, the contracting companies and the agencies they employ in the UK have Indian nationals so far over a barrel that individuals daren't challenge the status quo and stand up for their basic employment rights. That, Sir or Madam. is the only thing that seperates Indian and British IT workers.
4. You ask why companies employ mediocre Indian contractors? Because they can. You seem to think that there is a correlation between the employment of Indian workers and their efficiency. There isn't. They're cheap, don't complain and are not on headcount, therefore this can be introduced to Company shareholders as a profit margin and a 'throw-away' minimal investment. If you had any experience of how multi-nationals operate, you'd see this advantage also.
5. I'm not having a pop at you or Indians in general. I'm just laying it out as it is. If you think you can come along with illiterate nonsense to justify your smugness as the rising sun of the BRICS (BTW India's sun is starting to go down in that respect), think again. India accounts for 2.6% of the EUís total exports and 2.2% of the EUís total imports. You're not indispensable. Pride comes before a fall and India's next step is creaking.
Finally, we in the UK have always had a problem with illegal immigration. Indian migrants are just part of the problem. What I was trying to say was that in the near future, Indian 'talent' will no longer be needed as other fast growing economies will have your cheap advantage out from underneath your feet like a worn-out old rug. And where will your smugness get you then?Reg: 'You don't look very jolly!'
Mr Jolly: 'Look, just because my second name is Jolly doesn't mean I have to be jolly all the fucking time!'
- 29-04-2012, 21:10 #48
- Join Date
- Dec 2011
Fuck em. We've got plenty of unemployed and under-employed British IT professionals and graduates. We don't need India's.
- 29-04-2012, 21:23 #49
I read somewhere that the EU was conducting trade negotiations with India, and their number one wish was for more visas for Indian citizens to come to EU countries. Britain will get most of them of course. http://migrationwatchuk.com/briefingPaper/document/209
- 29-04-2012, 21:30 #50