ARmy Rumour SErvice

**Mountain-Monkey** · 18-04-2012, 01:23

Originally Posted by Wordsmith

Back to the more serious stuff...

Here's the Utoya ferry - which is apparently a converted landing craft. It has some measure of protection against small arms fire.

Here's the police armed response team making their way out to the island in a grossly overloaded inflatable. One or two shots into that and there would have been a lot of swimming/drowning police.

Given that the armed response team had to drive to the site - a journey that took an hour - there was plenty of time for some of the local police to ensure the ferry was available to take the armed team over. Instead, they went over in an overloaded and vulnerable inflatable.

Methinks something went badly wrong with the response.

Wordsmith

The ferry was not easily available, because the few aboard were in shock, and among other things, feared more accomplices dressed as police personnel on the land side. The captain had at least some of his children left on the island (survived), and either witnessed the murder of his wife (one of the first two to be killed), or saw her body just afterwards. Therefore, the ferry was driven away from the closest pier to somewhere deemed 'safe' by those aboard. When things calmed down, and contact with police was established, the captain stayed on, ferrying survivors, bodies and CSI throughout the night and the next day.

Some might judge him from their sofas. I wouldn't.

As for the police response in itself: yes, something went very wrong, mainly due to pre-existing conditions like the helicopter crew on summer holiday due to budget reasons, bad decisions in higher places, + someone not doing the math on max pax capacity of the RIB vs. weight of a squad of tooled up Delta.

Originally Posted by HectortheInspector

What he wants is basically the world to look at him.
He's not a 'terrorist.' Politics is the handle he hung his other problems on.
What he is, is a 'look at me, Dad' Narcissist. (Have a look at his choice of Do it yourself Ruritanian uniforms, and Masonic regalia.)
He wasn't going to die for his cause. He wants the oxygen of publicity, and I bet he subscribes to every news clipping service about himself.

Not mad. Just bad.

Spot on.

The ****er was pinged as early as age 4 by child social security services. The father, a diplomat, tried to get parentage, but the mother won in court, she has a history of mental illness, and possibly also substance abuse or alcoholism.

The guy had a 'complex' relationship with his mother, and lacked a proper father figure.

Originally Posted by joey_deacons_lad

Interesting that a Judge in what is known as one of the moset liberal justice systems in Europe was removed for calling for the death penalty. This and the insanity stitch up are not making the establishment look good at all

It was not a 'proper' judge, but a 'lay magistrate', something used instead of juries here (selection is pretty much the same). I don't know about you, but if I was going to court, no matter the offence, I wouldn't be too amused over jurors posting silly knee-jerk stuff on the internet under assumed names.

Re: insanity stitch up? What are you on about? Psychiatry is not an exact science, it's filled with interpretations, various schools and ways of thinking, and people with axes to grind, especially against other 'competitors' within the same discipline, much like other academical arts. In any case, the commissions statements are not final, but purely an aide/advice which the court can choose to use, fully, partly or not at all.

Originally Posted by HectortheInspector

My point is that he has a mental illness, but he is not insane. Many people have illnesses, but they don't go killing people, or if they do, it is usually themselves, close family members, or the first unfortunate who crosses their path.

This was meticulously planned (many psychotics aren't organised enough to buy enough pills in more than one packet from more than one chemist). He's a classic 'malignant narcissist'
Malignant narcissism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Pollock wrote: "The malignant narcissist is presented as pathologically grandiose, lacking in conscience and behavioral regulation with characteristic demonstrations of joyful cruelty and sadism"."

That's our boy.

Again, spot on.

Originally Posted by alib

Brevik certainly seems to a narcissist and pathologically grandiose. He's also clearly paranoid but the theories he advocates are quite commonplace drivel regularly exchange by wingnuts on the internet. He also seems to rather good at behavioral regulation, blubbing at his own propaganda video has been the only exhibition so far.

He does not appear to be a classical sadist, rather a joyless methodical executioner with daft but fully rationalized political motives almost unmoved by the experience of slaughtering the gilded youth of Norway's political elite, almost a peer group of this well set up young chap.

The one thing utterly stupid about his actions was his inept choice of target from a propaganda standpoint. He's said at the trial the youngsters were a secondary target his first choice was a bunch of Journos, far wiser: big media outcry but minimal public sympathy.

Brevik has confessed to be a great fan of AQ. It's rather strange that there have been few attempts to explain the equally kooky Mohammed Atta as simply suffering from a pathology and yet Brevik's sanity is widely doubted.

To me he seems no more than and entirely functional eccentric who has swallowed whole some of the insurgent rights la la land agitprop and taken what some fairly popular and entirely disingenuous bloggers have been saying for the past decade to a logical conclusion.

You're partly on the mark, but not quite. The youth and kids he slaughtered (and the attenders in general) were in no way gilded, nor were they the children of the political elite. By and large, they were a cross section of norwegian society.
Yes, there were a few with family ties to the Labour party or members of government, but the majority by far were daughers and sons of teachers, carpenters, a priest, immigrants, police officers etc.

Normal, scandinavian youth, of which most would probably spend a few youth years in AUF because they disapproved of racism, worried about global warming and preferred peace to war, without ever going on to climb to the dizzying heights of power.

I don't know if it's a historical class thing, but people outside Scandinavia seem to have a hard time grasping that this was neither an indoctrination camp for extreme lefties, nor a lush retreat filled with ministers children. I think the bastard, with his very limited ability to understand his surroundings and how our world works, didn't get that either.

Originally Posted by Robbo_72

I cannot stand for killing innocent civillian's, friend or foe.
But there is something very more disturbing about this.

1. He attacked a 'political camp' where young people are indoctrinated into non-center politics. And that's accepted mainstream media reporting.

Again, see above. Firstly, the young people were not indoctrinated into anything. Second, the labour party is Norways biggest political party, and in many ways a very different creature from your Labour. Although youth groups tend to be to the left side of their mother parties, because of the size and general support for social democracy in Norway, you would find everything from no-Nato vegans and apprentice welders to people interning in our MoD, and supporting our contribution in Afghanistan there there. Historically, the island and the summer camp was also a way for inner-city youth to get a virtually free holiday, tenting for the first time...

Originally Posted by Biscuits_Brown

Actually... That's exactly what I believe. He's a sexual and social inadequate who has realised that his jollies are going to come from imposition of his will through force. Largely because people hate him and no girls will let him touch their wee-wees.

The manifesto is an elaborate sham, a self defence mechanism that prevents him having to stand up in court and admit his absolute failings as a man and a human being.

Spot on. It's striking how often the self-proclaimed 'great defenders' of something seem to be the ones who have no clue about it, and were either excluded from, or standing on the fringe looking in before they decided to do some 'great sacrificial act'.
There's a video out from a Progress Youth Wing party, where he tries to go over and dance with some girls who are quite drunk and rubbing onto each other. They just laugh and turn away from him. He goes back to sit alone in a sofa, noone sitting next to, or talking with him. A good summing up of him in general in a few seconds.

The bastard wasn't well off.
1) Already in infancy, he showed signs of mental problems, some of it possibly caused, or aggravated by his home conditions.

2) Although in a posh part of town, his mothers flats, in which he also lived, were small, 'sub-standard' for the area, and nothing special.

3) He was arrested for 'tagging', ie. the most primitive form of graffiti, in his youth, and was a 'hiphopper' for several years in his teens.

4) He then 'sharped up', started to work out (possibly to compensate for physical shortcomings and beatings he had received from other youth), but did steroids (yet another sign of his inherent laziness and lack of appreciation for effort).

5) He dumped from his upper secondary school at 19, just before the final exams, because 'he didn't need them'. A basic lack of understanding for how society works, but a narcissist who believes he deserves to and will have everything coming to him anyway doesn't get that.

6) His 'grand money schemes' mainly consisted of borrowing money from his mother, and, somewhat of a surprise here, selling fake education diplomas over the internet internationally and at the end, overdrafting several credit cards.

In his part of Oslo, many kids would expect to be, and talk about being our local equivalent of your city brokers/bankers, something that rubbed off on him as well, although he didn't have the ability to go through with the education that is the pre-requisite of that, nor the ability of socialising with other people which is also nice to have if you want to make a mark in society.

He was and is a failure, and knew/knows it deep inside, but due to his pathological traits, chose and managed to explain all that away, and found a big 'cause' to make all those nasty little fiascos, losses, and feelings of inadequacy go away.

I would not be surprised if it turns out he's a closet homosexual-in-denial as well, if he wasn't secretly dreaming of shagging his mother, or both.

Wishing to be some kind of ideal man in a certain way, and then seeing the 'wrong' images when you're flogging your bishop can probably make you very angry.

**cernunnos** · 18-04-2012, 06:37

Originally Posted by HectortheInspector

My point is that he has a mental illness, but he is not insane. Many people have illnesses, but they don't go killing people, or if they do, it is usually themselves, close family members, or the first unfortunate who crosses their path.

This was meticulously planned (many psychotics aren't organised enough to buy enough pills in more than one packet from more than one chemist). He's a classic 'malignant narcissist'
Malignant narcissism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Pollock wrote: "The malignant narcissist is presented as pathologically grandiose, lacking in conscience and behavioral regulation with characteristic demonstrations of joyful cruelty and sadism"."

That's our boy.

Someone pointed out that he sounded like a PTI, with this malignant daffodil thingy...perhaps we should protect all public buildings and communist youth gangbangs with preventative mirrors. They work like flypaper for PTIs.

**alib** · 18-04-2012, 09:23

Originally Posted by Mountain-Monkey

...
You're partly on the mark, but not quite. The youth and kids he slaughtered (and the attenders in general) were in no way gilded, nor were they the children of the political elite. By and large, they were a cross section of norwegian society.
Yes, there were a few with family ties to the Labour party or members of government, but the majority by far were daughers and sons of teachers, carpenters, a priest, immigrants, police officers etc.

Normal, scandinavian youth, of which most would probably spend a few youth years in AUF because they disapproved of racism, worried about global warming and preferred peace to war, without ever going on to climb to the dizzying heights of power.

I don't know if it's a historical class thing, but people outside Scandinavia seem to have a hard time grasping that this was neither an indoctrination camp for extreme lefties, nor a lush retreat filled with ministers children. I think the bastard, with his very limited ability to understand his surroundings and how our world works, didn't get that either.
...

From his internet output Brevik regards Norway's comfortable rather tolerant society as a Marxist plot to destroy the country. Youth that subscribe even mildly to what is the conventional politics of the ruling elite are therefore legitimate political targets. He sees no distinction between an armed revolutionary Maoist a Nazi and the child of an innately conservative union man at a party camp. He sees the whitebread Norwegian "Multi-Culti" welfare state as an authoritarian conspiracy cruelly repressing noble minded nativists such as himself. Muslims in this overheated narrative play a similar role as Jews did in Nazi demonology, a stealthy but inexorable, corrupting tide of social parasites, that flows along side the political threat of Godless Bolshevism.

Though he's eccentric in rejecting a traditional white power narrative (that he seems to think is just too plebeian to be tasteful) in favor of a more romantic chivalric clash of his holy Crusader with an inferior but not ignoble radical Muslim foe. This is perhaps his only area of ideological innovation, he actually takes the apocalyptic Takfiri ideology AQ as an inspiration. In this case rather than declaring fellow believers apostate and therefore fair game he has his fellow Norwegians as traitors to the Western tradition.

This is a propaganda trend on the insurgent right you can even see in the GOP with even centrist Republicans being demonized as a traitorous fifth column of RHINOs. And a timidly liberal POTUS depicted as a Socialist/Nazi Kenyan stealth Muslim terrorist seeking to destroy Godly white America by installing Sharia, euthanizing grandma, banning guns and inflicting reparations for slavery. It would be an hilarious parody of paranoid politics except in the internet age this hysterical nonsense gains considerable traction.

**HectortheInspector** · 18-04-2012, 09:24

Originally Posted by cernunnos

Someone pointed out that he sounded like a PTI, with this malignant daffodil thingy...perhaps we should protect all public buildings and communist youth gangbangs with preventative mirrors. They work like flypaper for PTIs.

Only if you want Aldershot public library to look like this-Note the white vests.

**Biscuits_Brown** · 18-04-2012, 09:42

Originally Posted by alib

From his internet output Brevik regards Norway's comfortable rather tolerant society as a Marxist plot to destroy the country. Youth that subscribe even mildly to what is the conventional politics of the ruling elite are therefore legitimate political targets. He sees no distinction between an armed revolutionary Maoist a Nazi and the child of an innately conservative union man at a party camp. He sees the whitebread Norwegian "Multi-Culti" welfare state as an authoritarian conspiracy cruelly repressing noble minded nativists such as himself. Muslims in this overheated narrative play a similar role as Jews did in Nazi demonology, a stealthy but inexorable, corrupting tide of social parasites, that flows along side the political threat of Godless Bolshevism.

Though he's eccentric in rejecting a traditional white power narrative (that he seems to think is just too plebeian to be tasteful) in favor of a more romantic chivalric clash of his holy Crusader with an inferior but not ignoble radical Muslim foe. This is perhaps his only area of ideological innovation, he actually takes the apocalyptic Takfiri ideology AQ as an inspiration. In this case rather than declaring fellow believers apostate and therefore fair game he has his fellow Norwegians as traitors to the Western tradition.

This is a propaganda trend on the insurgent right you can even see in the GOP with even centrist Republicans being demonized as a traitorous fifth column of RHINOs. And a timidly liberal POTUS depicted as a Socialist/Nazi Kenyan stealth Muslim terrorist seeking to destroy Godly white America by installing Sharia, euthanizing grandma, banning guns and inflicting reparations for slavery. It would be an hilarious parody of paranoid politics except in the internet age this hysterical nonsense gains considerable traction.

Yes well... That or he had to invent a personal fruitloop creed that explained why the other fruitloops told him to sling his hook, just like everyone else had.
Utoya was not a mission inspired by a manifesto or a creed, rather the manifesto is an excuse for his actions, a justification for child abuse.

And daddy didn't put his drawings on the fridge.

**History_Man** · 18-04-2012, 09:43

Originally Posted by alib

This is a propaganda trend on the insurgent right you can even see in the GOP with even centrist Republicans being demonized as a traitorous fifth column of RHINOs. And a timidly liberal POTUS depicted as a Socialist/Nazi Kenyan stealth Muslim terrorist seeking to destroy Godly white America by installing Sharia, euthanizing grandma, banning guns and inflicting reparations for slavery. It would be an hilarious parody of paranoid politics except in the internet age this hysterical nonsense gains considerable traction.

This is the most disturbing aspect of the trial - Breivik was able to pour out his inconsistent and, quite frankly, illogical theories for an hour; the trial judge interrupted him four times, but did not stop him. These ramblings are now flying round the internet and someone, somewhere will think that they constitute a good idea. There are plenty of potential Breivik's out there, especially during a severe economic downturn.

**Robbeaus** · 18-04-2012, 10:13

There seems to be a whole lot of high fluting dribble and nonsense wibbling here.
What ever his views deranged or not, a 9mm in the back of the head up Black Mountain will resolve this deranged Tory party worker.

**Biscuits_Brown** · 18-04-2012, 10:13

Originally Posted by History_Man

This is the most disturbing aspect of the trial - Breivik was able to pour out his inconsistent and, quite frankly, illogical theories for an hour; the trial judge interrupted him four times, but did not stop him. These ramblings are now flying round the internet and someone, somewhere will think that they constitute a good idea. There are plenty of potential Breivik's out there, especially during a severe economic downturn.

True insofar as the world is full of dickless no marks.

But if it isn't the "Knight's Templar", it'll be "all women are whores", "I'm oppressed by intellectuals", "I'm keen on/I am not fond of Allah" or "This is the ultimate expression of performance art".

The fact is they just want to kick puppies and have an excuse waiting other than "I express my utter hatred of myself and the world by hurting things that can't hurt me back" for when mummy catches them.

**alib** · 18-04-2012, 10:27

Originally Posted by History_Man

This is the most disturbing aspect of the trial - Breivik was able to pour out his inconsistent and, quite frankly, illogical theories for an hour; the trial judge interrupted him four times, but did not stop him. These ramblings are now flying round the internet and someone, somewhere will think that they constitute a good idea. There are plenty of potential Breivik's out there, especially during a severe economic downturn.

Err, it's called freedom of speech, it would make no sense to gag him, he's actually a very poor propagandist in any case.

**History_Man** · 18-04-2012, 10:46

Originally Posted by alib

Err, it's called freedom of speech, it would make no sense to gag him, he's actually a very poor propagandist in any case.

Freedom of specch is not an absolute right during the course of a criminal trial, the purpose of which is to test the evidence, a uniform requirement throughout the EU/EEA. The interesting feature of Breivik's testimony is that the trial judge gave him x amount of time and then did not stop him when he actually spoke for y amount of time; I am not so certain that our judiciary would have been so lenient. I agree that he is a very poor propagandist, but that doesn't detract from my previous point - someone, somewhere else will not care about the quality of Breivik's arguments but will glaldy follow them and act upon them in any case because his message strikes a chord with their own prejudices.