- 16-07-2012, 00:23 #241"A democracy cannot survive as a permanent form of government. It can last only until its citizens discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority (who vote) will vote for those candidates promising the greatest benefits from the public purse, with the result that a democracy will always collapse from loose fiscal policies, always followed by a dictatorship." Lord Thomas MacCauley 1857
- 16-07-2012, 00:54 #242
Now, he may agree with a religious and secular split. That's what I understood by the term "Zionism", the religious imperative to determine a country based on biblical boundaries and so forth. So, secular Jews may not agree with Zionists (who may not be classed as "real jews"?)
(Actually, maybe this is Wales I am thinking of with the Welsh-speakers and the whole North/South thing?)
But then, I've also just finished reading "A Line in the Sand", which has much about the early escapades in Palestine. There were plenty of people proud to call themselves Zionists then.
I guess a word means what a person wants it to mean at the time that they use it.
(A friend wiser in the ways of the middle east north africa area than me tells a good story of being asked whether he was a friend if Israel or a friend of the Palestinians. He replied he was a "friend of peace").
Words, need interpretors even in your own language I have often thought.
- 16-07-2012, 01:08 #243"A democracy cannot survive as a permanent form of government. It can last only until its citizens discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority (who vote) will vote for those candidates promising the greatest benefits from the public purse, with the result that a democracy will always collapse from loose fiscal policies, always followed by a dictatorship." Lord Thomas MacCauley 1857
- 16-07-2012, 01:09 #244
A secular Jewish state is certainly not an oxymoron, the Zionists who created Israel mostly focused on their racial identity and modern Israel is largely a Leftist colonial adventure out of the Russian Pale. Jews after all had long been persecuted by the Goyim mainly because of their blood, not faith, cursed by the Church as Deicides on which the sins of te fathers must be visited.
The Jewish state very nearly ended up in central Africa. It has always been conflicted with the Jewish religious identify and many of the devout are as uncomfortable with the secular Israeli state as Catholic Falangists were with Republican Spain.That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!
- 16-07-2012, 01:22 #245"A democracy cannot survive as a permanent form of government. It can last only until its citizens discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority (who vote) will vote for those candidates promising the greatest benefits from the public purse, with the result that a democracy will always collapse from loose fiscal policies, always followed by a dictatorship." Lord Thomas MacCauley 1857
- 16-07-2012, 08:31 #246
Edit: Two minutes on google on my phone threw this up: http://www.cfr.org/international-law/legal-basis-preemption/p5250
It's worth noting that this interpretation has never been invoked (except in the questionable case of Vietnam) and therefore remains untested.
Last edited by Caecilius; 16-07-2012 at 08:42.Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
- 16-07-2012, 10:35 #247
Your thinking of "The Zionist Entity", this has phrase much in common with Irish Republicans refereeing to N.Ireland as an "Orange Statelet" and its fair to say this identifies a sectarian system of rule they were indicating they didn't accept the legitimacy of, the Protestant Ascendancy. Zionism really is as neutral as say Thatcherism or Pan-Arabism and you can't really talk sensibly about Israel without recognizing the Jewish nationalist ideology the state was founded on and the fears behind that. It's also intertwined with the romance of religious Zionism and the ancient attachment to the classical Jewish homeland.
Most Pals now accept they won't be rid of Israel any time soon and accept coexistence as a reality. However they choke on the core secular Zionist idea of "A Jewish State" just as Irish Catholics refused my tribes now discarded definition of N.Irelands as "A Protestant State". The place was a democracy, we even had one man one vote by the 70s, but as Jews do in Israel we Prods had many institutional preferments that we jealously protected. This definition was an obstacle to setting up the sectarian power sharing where both tribes are allocated representation and the majority Prods can't simply dominate the place that brought some peace to the place.
Israelis have a more difficult problem, secular Zionism asserts that the Jewish people will never be safe in a state that they do not dominate. The Goyim are haters and can't finally be trusted. Given what happened to the very well assimilated population of Weimar Germany it's understandable. Unlike, say triumphalist Dixiecrat white supremacy, a real fear of pogroms underlies this. Israeli Zionists do assert even the 21st century USA with all its protections and civil rights is no safe haven for Jews, this does seem slightly crazed to most of their now very secure US brethren.
Zionism practically puts power sharing with a larger Pal population off the table. Israelis are also keen democrats, but clearly Zionist principles impose limits. While Septics have found themselves with a son of a Kenyan Muslim in charge very few Israelis can imagine their state with a non-Jewish leader. Even setting up a semi-autonomous Pal state to (temporarily given Israeli Pal birth rates) gerrymander a Jewish majority in Israel seems to be too big reach. That's been unstated US policy since Camp David and an explicit goal since George W. Bush came to power.
Yet Israel through lingering decency and a desire not stir up a shit storm hesitates to follow the logical consequences and expel the remaining Pals. The result is a squalid spectacle of walled camps, simmering hatreds and low intensity terrorism. For the Pals it is not anywhere near as bad as say the likely fate of Syrian Alawites but that's liable to make Israel look rather tawdry for a long time. Many people are perplexed by what is a very progressive country in many ways behaving this way, but the Israelis are trapped by ideology.
What makes it worse is any genuinely Muslim state is obliged by scripture to ensure the Holy Land is held under Sharia which puts Zionist Israel fundamentally at odds with much of the worlds population, whatever treaties they sign.
This makes any enemy of Israel becoming a nuclear power as Pakistan did not just a security question but also an ideological threat to the very purpose of secular Zionism. It's main existential utilitarian argument is reduced to nonsense if the existence of Israel merely exposes the majority of the worlds Jews to a second Shoah in a nuclear war. That would be as idiotic as creating a refuge state to save India's Muslim minority from the Hindu and then menacing the whole place with nukes.That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!
- 16-07-2012, 10:46 #248
- 16-07-2012, 13:38 #249
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Welling, Kent
- 16-07-2012, 14:17 #250
Now, It's been a while since I did this bit of history at uni but....
The British tried to hold their colonial mandate there with extraordinary problems (not just the local Arab/Jewish), but French then the Vichy French, and then insurgents.
There was classic insurgency tactics, with the British police being isolated from the population and the Hebrew speaking detectives being murdered by the Stern Gang et al, of Jewish extremists. This is not to excuse anyone of blame, the mufti of Jerusalem would have struck a bargain with Hitler!
Ord Wingate (which the IDF depot is named after) did indeed bring in the Special Night Squads, which was part of the miltiarisation of the security situation.
Bear in mind the Palestine Police tie colours were (and still are) "black and tan" (had the pleasure once of coming to the assistance of a pensioner, and after I had done all the duty stuff we had a long chat about what it was to be a member of that colonial constabulary).
It was not long after that the King David hotel was blown up, leading to excesses against Jewish populations in Palestine and the UK.
Then the UK managed to have a typical problem with Major Farran of the SAS beating a suspect to death, which led (IIRR) to letter bombs being sent to the UK for some time after.
It probably reached its nadir with the murder by lynching of Sgts Paice and Martin of the Intelligence Corps, and the booby trapping of their bodies where they hung in a cypress grove.
The scholarship has probabyl moved on since the late 1990s, and I don't have the reading lists I was once chucked to hands. Tom Mockaitis used to write loads on British Counterinsurgency if you're into history of this sort of thing.
I wouldn't neccessarily disagree with you adducing such a conclusion.
One day perhaps people of good-will will put all such fanatacism behind them, like the stupidity which leads to mass brawls between the monks as to who get's to sweep out the church of the holy nativity.
I've had the pleasure and privillege to visit Jerusalem, but I wouldn't really want to live there. Too many people certain in their ways bringing their God with them...
Last edited by Boumer; 16-07-2012 at 14:30.