- 02-03-2012, 14:24 #41
- 02-03-2012, 15:10 #42
Some clarification, for what its worth.
Haredi groups that oppose recognition of the State of Israel:
Satmar, Neturei Karta (two factions – moderate and radical, cross link with Satmar), Dushinsky, Shomer Emunim, Mishkenos HoRoim, Brisk (split for and against) Breslov (split for and against)
Edah HaChareidis (main Haredi umbrella group in Israel) members do not accept funds nor serve in the IDF.
N.B., Individual communities within these Haredi groups espouse remarkably diverse attitudes towards the modern state of Israel and Zionism. However, it is fair to say that they minimally oppose the state.
Haredi groups with limited opposition to the State of Israel:
Lithuanian ('Litvish') Haredi Judaism (anti-secular, not anti Israel), Ger (ant-secular) and Belz Hasidim, Chabad-Lubavitch (anti-secular, not anti-Israel, strong proponent of keeping territories etc. serve in IDF)
Often cited Haredi groups that support Zionism and the State of Israel
*Hardal (Charedi Dati Leumi.), *Shas (Sephardic Haredim)
*It can be argued that these may or may not be Haredi. Hardal was founded in 1990 and is composed of orthodox religious Zionists who have adopted a more stringent lifestyle. Shas is a political movement with a strong Sephardi traditional religious base, but incorporates people/voters from a very broad range of observance/nonobservance. They are often deal makers/breakers in the parliament.
World Wide Demographic, unless otherwise specified.
This is a best estimate based on census, internal documents and projection based on traditional family size. Determining the size of Haredi groups is notoriously difficult. These are only estimates and are open for revision.
**Satmar approximately 130,000 to 220,000
Naturei Karta 5,000 in Jerusalem (radical branch, smallest part of NK)
Dushinsky unknown, considered to be the same size or smaller than Naturei Karta in Jerusalem.
Shomer Emunim unknown
Mishkenos HaRoim thought to be <1500
Brisk unknown, thought to be similar or smaller than Satmar
Breslov unknown and very fluid due to lack of central organization and diverse belief
**Ger smaller than Chabad Lubavitch, the same size or larger than Satmar.
Belz approximately 20,000
**Chabad-Lubavitch; 450,000 to 800,000
Hardal unknown, founded 1990.
**Considered to be the largest groups within the Haredi community.
An easily accessed article of limited use discussing some of the difficulties.
Four surveys yield different totals for Haredi population - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
- 02-03-2012, 15:55 #43
As is often the case the often demonized Israelis actually approach these matter rather progressively, each acknowledged Israeli religion has its own family court, so the principles of Islamic Sharia or Jewish Halakha are already respected in divorce cases etc. The other parts of Israeli law don't appear to work so well for the Pals but nobody is perfect.
Most modern Muslim states base their law on Sharia. I'd rather law was secular but the reality is Sharia is preferable to no law, or the barbaric ethnic codes of practice like Pashtunwali that still take precedence over it over much of the Umma. Imported Western codes of law often don't work well in these societies, ordinary people are just fleeced by the official justice system and fall back on clan custom and violence, just look at Pakistan, Sharia itself still struggles but might actually be an improvement on what the Brits left behind.That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!
- Loony drivel
- 02-03-2012, 20:05 #44
That was the one I ROP'd!ARRSE - slamming the wasps from the pure apple of truth.
- 02-03-2012, 21:15 #45
- Join Date
- Jul 2003
Were they 'Conchies' I could respect their weltanschauung - but these self-regarding tossers, on the other hand, leave me in 'fukkem' mode, big time.Summer grasses - all that is left of the dreams of soldiers
- 02-03-2012, 21:41 #46A l'eau; C'est l'heure.
- 02-03-2012, 21:44 #47
- Join Date
- Oct 2004
- Gods Waiting room
I quite like the god before govt argument, let's face it if its true then the secular govt is what your god has given you!
Suck it up yiddo!
- 02-03-2012, 23:27 #48
Surviving together, rather than failing apart, one country, one people (albeit with different versions of the Judaic religion) and one purpose.E-Tool counselling;
When E-Mailing isn't enough.
(Curtesy of Goldbricker).
- 02-03-2012, 23:34 #49
- 14-07-2012, 14:53 #50
- Join Date
- Mar 2005
The issue seems to be coming to a head: Israeli coalition split by demands to make ultra-Orthodox Jews serve in army | World news | The Observer
Some nice quotes in there:Yaakov Uri, who runs a pizza parlour in Geula, an Orthodox neighbourhood in Jerusalem, said the problem was that secular Israelis like Yosam had no understanding of the sacrifices religious Jews make for them. "You think it's so easy to sit and study all day, bring up seven children on $700 a month? No, it's very hard," he said.
These men, in his opinion, are as critical for the defence of Israel as the army. They provide spiritual protection. "The Torah is saving and guarding the Jews," Uri said. "Take the Iraq war. Saddam Hussein sent 39 Scud missiles into Israel. They didn't touch anyone. What is this? It wasn't the army – they sat with their arms folded. It was the Torah," he said.