ARmy Rumour SErvice

Some clarification, for what its worth.

Haredi groups that oppose recognition of the State of Israel:
Satmar, Neturei Karta (two factions – moderate and radical, cross link with Satmar), Dushinsky, Shomer Emunim, Mishkenos HoRoim, Brisk (split for and against) Breslov (split for and against)

Edah HaChareidis (main Haredi umbrella group in Israel) members do not accept funds nor serve in the IDF.

N.B., Individual communities within these Haredi groups espouse remarkably diverse attitudes towards the modern state of Israel and Zionism. However, it is fair to say that they minimally oppose the state.

Haredi groups with limited opposition to the State of Israel:
Lithuanian ('Litvish') Haredi Judaism (anti-secular, not anti Israel), Ger (ant-secular) and Belz Hasidim, Chabad-Lubavitch (anti-secular, not anti-Israel, strong proponent of keeping territories etc. serve in IDF)

Often cited Haredi groups that support Zionism and the State of Israel
*Hardal (Charedi Dati Leumi.), *Shas (Sephardic Haredim)

*It can be argued that these may or may not be Haredi. Hardal was founded in 1990 and is composed of orthodox religious Zionists who have adopted a more stringent lifestyle. Shas is a political movement with a strong Sephardi traditional religious base, but incorporates people/voters from a very broad range of observance/nonobservance. They are often deal makers/breakers in the parliament.

World Wide Demographic, unless otherwise specified.
This is a best estimate based on census, internal documents and projection based on traditional family size. Determining the size of Haredi groups is notoriously difficult. These are only estimates and are open for revision.

**Satmar approximately 130,000 to 220,000
Naturei Karta 5,000 in Jerusalem (radical branch, smallest part of NK)
Dushinsky unknown, considered to be the same size or smaller than Naturei Karta in Jerusalem.
Shomer Emunim unknown
Mishkenos HaRoim thought to be <1500
Brisk unknown, thought to be similar or smaller than Satmar
Breslov unknown and very fluid due to lack of central organization and diverse belief
**Ger smaller than Chabad Lubavitch, the same size or larger than Satmar.
Belz approximately 20,000
**Chabad-Lubavitch; 450,000 to 800,000
Hardal unknown, founded 1990.
Shas unknown

**Considered to be the largest groups within the Haredi community.

An easily accessed article of limited use discussing some of the difficulties.
Four surveys yield different totals for Haredi population - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Originally Posted by Fred_Frog_1987

God first, government second? Presumably you'd be happy to see Sharia law take prominence over Israeli law in Arab-dominated areas?

For a lot of people the state isn't even a distant second to God, I'm not perverse enough to wish that reality away. I'm a Godless lefty but that bit of man isn't ever going to be perfected.

As is often the case the often demonized Israelis actually approach these matter rather progressively, each acknowledged Israeli religion has its own family court, so the principles of Islamic Sharia or Jewish Halakha are already respected in divorce cases etc. The other parts of Israeli law don't appear to work so well for the Pals but nobody is perfect.

Most modern Muslim states base their law on Sharia. I'd rather law was secular but the reality is Sharia is preferable to no law, or the barbaric ethnic codes of practice like Pashtunwali that still take precedence over it over much of the Umma. Imported Western codes of law often don't work well in these societies, ordinary people are just fleeced by the official justice system and fall back on clan custom and violence, just look at Pakistan, Sharia itself still struggles but might actually be an improvement on what the Brits left behind.

That was the one I ROP'd!

Originally Posted by alib

I suspect that the reverse is the case, the IDF are rather good at ensuring the other side does the dying. The IDF's day to day job is policing the Pals, I can't think of a demographic less suitable to do that apart from the Pals themselves.

Isn't that the point, though? These people want all of the good stuff that they associate with their view of Israeli identity - one which (at best) exacerbates the tension with the neighbours, yet - for reasons I can't begin to comprehend - they believe they are 'divinely entitled' to stand back when the ordure impacts the air conditioner.

Were they 'Conchies' I could respect their weltanschauung - but these self-regarding tossers, on the other hand, leave me in 'fukkem' mode, big time.

Originally Posted by SeriesOne

As a historical footnote, most of the worlds acetone at the time came from the USA. Being neutral they sold to the highest bidder, in this instance the Huns.

I'd question that as historical fact. By 1915 there was no way for the Germans to get manufactured goods from the USA - their merchant marine was either captured, sunk or interned and neutral shipping taking stuff to Germany was stopped by the RN and either confiscated or bought.

I quite like the god before govt argument, let's face it if its true then the secular govt is what your god has given you!
Suck it up yiddo!

Originally Posted by alib

Which does not make them very practical conscripts.

I think you are missing the core issue, there has always been big ideological objections to the Zionist conception of Israel amongst the Haredim. It's only a couple of years ago that Shas, the Sephardic Haredim party officially joined a Zionist organization and most of the others object to those ideals out of hand, a fair few don't acknowledge the state of Israel and even more regard the idea as an offense against God, some won't even accept state handouts.

This does not make them popular a while back there was a survey with a third of Israelis rating them as the most hated group in Israel and that's up against some pretty tough competition from "The Russians".

I'd say on the grounds of freedom of religion they are entitled to their uncomfortable views and I think its understandable that they don't want to be part of the IDF's Zionist melting pot.

I rather thought that the issue is less how effective they would be as IDF conscripts more the fact that they are getting the benefits of the nation's protection but do not contribute towards it; if they were conscripted and used for useful projects acceptable to their beliefs, it would go a long way towards reducing the resentment which many may feel while doing their stint of service, service on a kibbutz springs to mind as showing that they are all bound in a common cause.

Surviving together, rather than failing apart, one country, one people (albeit with different versions of the Judaic religion) and one purpose.

Originally Posted by Chef

I rather thought that the issue is less how effective they would be as IDF conscripts more the fact that they are getting the benefits of the nation's protection but do not contribute towards it; if they were conscripted and used for useful projects acceptable to their beliefs, it would go a long way towards reducing the resentment which many may feel while doing their stint of service, service on a kibbutz springs to mind as showing that they are all bound in a common cause.

Surviving together, rather than failing apart, one country, one people (albeit with different versions of the Judaic religion) and one purpose.

The situation is no worse than the British Jehovah's witnesses during WW2.....and we know what the Nazi's would have done to them.