GM such redundancies happened last time we had a Tory govt. agency staff were then fetched in at great cost. In time a bright spark then decides its cheaper to pay permanent staff.

I was going to comment on this thread, but I make it a policy never to get involved in arguments with people about their religion.

Originally Posted by mush_dad

I was agreeing with all you said until you started getting emotional and uptight about the daily mail. I certainly find it a lamenable excuse for a newspaper, but to whitewash it's whole stance as "middle class rightwing bullshit", you lost me. It carries and refelcts the views of a significant proportion of the population. It's about as cogent an argument as describing the Guardian's stance as pinko commie hogwash.

Yes, most of the NHS's workload is preventable as people just will not take responsibilty for their own health, but it is running out of money, fast.

Yes, the NHS is a sucess story, probably a victim of its own sucess. But is it the best it could be, definitely not. My time in the NHS saw power vested in the large trust hospitals who counted very cynically the cash brought in by chronic patients who needed extended treatments. Any propositions by the PCTs to promote a culture of preventative medicine was immediately disparaged.

It's a wake up call for the NHS to respond to, not bury it's head in the sand.

BTW Previously privatised services - BT for one, if you remember the old days of the GPO monopoly

okay I concur, I apologise for slurring the daily mail

Originally Posted by jarrod248

GM such redundancies happened last time we had a Tory govt. agency staff were then fetched in at great cost. In time a bright spark then decides its cheaper to pay permanent staff.

Another thing to consider is the impact of the new Agency Workers Directive - key element being that "temps" get perm rights after 12 weeks.

Originally Posted by jarrod248

GM such redundancies happened last time we had a Tory govt. agency staff were then fetched in at great cost. In time a bright spark then decides its cheaper to pay permanent staff.

The last time we had redundancies at our hospital was under a Labour govt. They're all as bad as each other, at least the Tories are a bit more honest, we knew when they got in there'd be cuts...

'NHS bill "to be forced through"'... should this be merged with the 'A very pretty prolapse' thread?

On a scale of 1 - 10 with 10 being complete bollocks -

Score 10 - The PCTs had specially trained managers. Oh how I laughed. Most of them were totally incompetent.

Score 10 -Health and Safety is ruining the country - HASWA has been one of the most effective pieces of legislation for saving the lives of workers of any type in this country. There may be absurdities, but in general, H&S stuff is extremely effective. The down side is that lawyers exploit it for profit, and the compensation culture exploits it too, but the basic principle behind HASWA is solid.

Score 9 - that unions are running the NHS. RCN didnt even ballot for industrial action, let alone wave a few banners about. Unison was a little more vigorous, but as a force to be reckoned with? A well-fed sheep would have been a meaner opponent.


Score 8 - The Tories instituted polices which IN THE PAST destroyed the NHS. The GP led systems worked pretty well, until the Blair government laid in place the PCTs. The PCT structure did have soem useful functions but in general were just a structure developed by the insane Labour government to move money from one pocket to another. there is the horrific side to PCTs with waste - Co Durham PCT funded road gritters last winter... yes thats right, road gritters. Not nurses or doctors, but people spreading salt on roads. The connection with healthcare is tenuous at best. Dont get me started on "Health Academies" basically PCT sponsored secondary schools, many of which are now failing OFSTED inspections.... The PCTs are harder to get rid of than herpes. CAVEAT - what the Tories are currently doing is hugely dangerous.............


Score 7 - Survival rates. Cancer survival rates get the headlines every time, and we are doing quite well with that too, but other conditions can be lethal too, its just that they dont have the PR.

Score 6 - "lifestyle" choices are responsible for much of the NHS woes. Whilst I would be the first to admit that druggies and drunks cause a great deal of trouble, I would say its extremely difficult to draw the line between lifestyle choice, and care for someone who is sick. What of an industrial worker who started smoking in the 60s and cannot get off smoking even if his lung capacity is the size of the size of a thimble? A life working in crap conditions and a culture from the 60s where smoking was the norm? We cannot apply the standards of today to the last few decades.

Originally Posted by Hootch

Some good points, but I am uncomfortable that the NHS is almost beyond scrutiny - budget exploded over the past decade with limitied tangible improvement, if we paid our entire GDP, we could never cover the demands of the NHS.

Again, that is a problem to which privatisation is not the solution.

This is unfortunately the Tory approach - 'The NHS has problems that can only be addressed by reform', 'privatisation is a reform idea', 'we must privatise to solve problems'.

It must be said that I am not, a priori, opposed to privatisation. However the history of Conservative governments in particular is that they are extremely poor at implementing their own policies and in the long run, privatisation has not solved the problem it was intended to. Rail, energy and utilities still run at massive public subsidy and direct costs to the consumer (putting aside the taxation contribution) is ever climbing.

The fact that this coalition is forcing so many bills through under the umbrella of "cutbacks" is going against the grain and will prove to be it's downfall.

Sensible prudence with the backing of the majority is the correct way forward.

Originally Posted by AIR FILTER

The fact that this coalition is forcing so many bills through under the umbrella of "cutbacks" is going against the grain and will prove to be it's downfall.

Sensible prudence with the backing of the majority is the correct way forward.

Sensible prudence isn't enough I'm afraid, we've too many people on benefits getting too much money. It's quite clear money is tight and we need to be manufacturing and exporting. We need the idle working.