Also who thinks the french might do a swap on the second carrier for a rafale M air wing?

Originally Posted by diggerdaddy

Also who thinks the french might do a swap on the second carrier for a rafale M air wing?

I suspect BAE who will be building in the UK, very large chunks of every F-35 that gets sold around the world, might not approve.

from the other thread re British Aid to India - for those who didn't see the Telegraph piece on this :

DFID has sent more than £1 billion of UK taxpayers’ money to India in the last five years and is planning to spend a further £600 million on Indian aid by 2015.

“They said that British ministers had spent political capital justifying the aid to their electorate,” one source told The Sunday Telegraph.

“They said it would be highly embarrassing if the Centre [the government of India] then pulled the plug.”

Amid steep reductions in most British government spending, the NHS and aid have been the only two budgets protected from cuts.

Britain currently pays India around £280 million a year, six times the amount given by the second-largest bilateral donor, the United States. Almost three-quarters of all foreign bilateral aid going to India comes from Britain. France, chosen as favourite to land the warplane deal, gives around £19 million a year.

Controversial British projects have included giving the city of Bhopal £118,000 to help fit its municipal buses and dustcarts with GPS satellite tracking systems. Bhopal’s buses got satellite tracking before most of Britain’s did.

In India, meanwhile, government audit reports found £70 million had disappeared from one DFID-funded project alone.

Around £44,000 of British aid was allegedly siphoned off by one project official to finance a movie directed by her son.

For the same amount we give India in aid ANNUALLY the RN could have a new Type 45 ......every year.

Alternatively - Britain could wet-charter the USS Nimitz on a day rate for 9 months......

The British Army could re-equip the Challenger 2 fleet - entirely - from new....in 2 years.

The Dept of Health could buy 200 CAT scanners .... or a new District General hospital with an ICU ....every year....



Yup, beats me......

India has give 2billion on Aid to Afganistan. UK gives 250million aid a year that is not even enough to maintain a district let alone help India. This is a joke ask your government to stop humiliating us and pay for the poor british peopls heating and food in the soup kitchen. We appreciate if you did that.

Originally Posted by godless-kafir

India has give 2billion on Aid to Afganistan. UK gives 250million aid a year that is not even enough to maintain a district let alone help India. This is a joke ask your government to stop humiliating us and pay for the poor british peopls heating and food in the soup kitchen. We appreciate if you did that.

Are you Indian?

edit - never mind, just read the other thread on aid to India.

can someone answer me ???

I still don't understand what are you guys so upset about.
1. that we spent 10 billion dollars on fighter jets.
OR
2. we bought jets from France??

I must confess that we Indians are equally livid as the British are.

Not because of what we bought, which, anyway, as anyone fair and just will agree, is our prerogative.

We are livid as to why the anger?

As one of the Indian posters, pmaitra, stated in the other thread, if indeed the British were angered that India had a space programme going, could afford such a huge defence deal, then would it not appear justified if the British had displayed it long ago, when the Indian Govt called for bids?

The Typhoon should also not have been put up for sale to India since it would not be morally correct to do so by the very people who care for 'the pitiable state of the millions of India', and who drink water from the polluted 'Ghangis' (actually, Ganges in English and Ganga in the vernacular), have no electricity, no education and no nothing.

Why the complaint and call of the conscience now at this belated stage? Yes, now, after the deal fell through. Had India bought the Typhoon, would the outrage still be there - the outrage that we see now, but never saw before the deal fell through?

The said Indian poster also mentioned that India has been subject to successive invasions over history. Huns, Persian, Alexander, Timur Lame, Turks, Afghans Mughuls, Dutch, French, Portuguese, British et al.

It appears we are invasion prone and hence, rightly, invasion sensitive.

Tibet is now a part of China and China claims more lands of India and elsewhere. We have had four war with Pakistan. We are under constant threat!

Is it expected by the British people that India should, with bated breath and whispering humbleness, state to all those who threaten us with war that we are ready to keel over and play dead and not be prepared?

Is being ready to defend one's hearth and home a sin, a crime, an evil act, or even squandering money?

We are grateful to the British for their concern about our people and generosity, if you will, even when they are themselves having economic difficulties. Have no doubts about that.

But then, are they justified by claiming that a nation that has been ravaged and pillaged through history should forget the past and be ready to be enslaved again? And that too all because it did not have the foresight to be prepared to defend itself with the best offer available in the world, and instead only be concerned with social necessities (which are also important) and which will come to nought if India is again invaded and enslaved once again?!

Think that over in a fair and just way!

Let's face it, the Indian managers and Government officials are intelligent highly skilled negotiators, negotiating in a buyers market (far more sellers than buyers); and they'll run rings round the UK MOD and UK Government.

The UK Government and BAE SYSTEMS can't now resort to the odd bribe or two, but I bet the French have no issues with a few brown envelopes.

Reminds me of previous contracts.

Indians: Sell us the airframe cheap, then when we've got some more money we'll buy your [UK] swish avionics suite.
British: OK. You can have the airframe for less than it costs us to make it. (Aside: We'll make the profit on the Avionics suite)
Indians: Dickheads, they [UK] didn't even contract us to buying their over-priced avionics later.
Some time later...
Indians: Hello froggies, would you sell us an avionics suite cheap (to get one over the English)?
French: Rather...!

I'm NOT taking bets (at any odds) that history will repeat itself. Why don't we reserve Eurofighter Typhoon for customers with plenty of money. Instead of bending over backwards, displaying abject desperation to get contracts at any price, why don't we just tell half the world "You're not getting our good stuff because you don't give us [UK] the respect we deserve, and you don't have enough money to buy such high tech weaponry etc?" Then we'll throw into the mix that foreign aid packages are being reviewed in light of certain countries attitudes to UK, and some counries aid will be cut or terminated. We might find a few more countries determined to show the world that they're wealthy enough to buy. It's called playing them at their game. When they don't play by the nice rules, then we can't afford to either.

Originally Posted by Rayc

The said Indian poster also mentioned that India has been subject to successive invasions over history. Huns, Persian, Alexander, Timur Lame, Turks, Afghans Mughuls, Dutch, French, Portuguese, British et al.

Ray Sir,

I might differ with you slightly when it comes to the French (and the Dutch).

The French were probably slightly better than the British. Let us not forget the first battle between India and Britain - The Battle of Plassey! Along with the Indians, there were 20 Frenchmen manning Siraj's newly acquired French artillery pieces (cannons). The French government gave that as a military aid to Siraj because there just wasn't enough time for the French to train the Indian artillery soldiers. The French also helped the US Freedom Fighters defeat the British. Lafayette is a street name in many US cities. The French have always jumped in whenever they saw an opportunity to trounce the British. Call it an ancient trans-channel European rivalry, since Napoleonic times, if you will.

Of course, one could argue, that the French, historically, hate anything British. Keep the Channel Tunnel and the Concorde aside, the French and the British neither have anything in concord, nor concrete! It should not come as a surprise that India choosing French fighter jets have upset some of our friends in Britain. I am not particularly certain that after this Rafale incident, British minds are overflowing with adoration for the French.

I would only reiterate to the kind populace of Britain, that we Indians neither hate the current generation of the British nor experience pleasure at their suffering due to the economic recession and other problems that the UK is experiencing right now. Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers have been building hovercrafts with British assistance for a while now. We have used Centurion tanks earlier, and with much success. I believe you have mentioned Harriers and Hawks earlier. Perhaps it is inappropriate to mention these in a thread dedicated to Rafale. My excuse could be one to placate the frustration that some of our British friends might be experiencing.

I am sure there will be opportunities for India to procure weapons and military hardware from UK and I could speculate that we would not see much concern about India spending its money on military hardware instead of on the poor in India, as long as India was spending it on British military hardware.

I wish the people of Britain well and do humbly beseech that they understand and appreciate that our decision to procure the Rafale was neither based on India being part of the British Empire in the past nor the British Aid that has recently been politely declined, but purely based on technical specifications, price and maintenance costs. Perhaps French reliability (read: less inclination to declare sanctions on India by French) contributed to some extent.

I appreciate your comments here Ray Sir. You are doing a great service to India.

Best Regards.

Originally Posted by All4One_One4All

Let's face it, the Indian managers and Government officials are intelligent highly skilled negotiators, negotiating in a buyers market (far more sellers than buyers); and they'll run rings round the UK MOD and UK Government.

The UK Government and BAE SYSTEMS can't now resort to the odd bribe or two, but I bet the French have no issues with a few brown envelopes.

Reminds me of previous contracts.

Indians: Sell us the airframe cheap, then when we've got some more money we'll buy your [UK] swish avionics suite.
British: OK. You can have the airframe for less than it costs us to make it. (Aside: We'll make the profit on the Avionics suite)
Indians: Dickheads, they [UK] didn't even contract us to buying their over-priced avionics later.
Some time later...
Indians: Hello froggies, would you sell us an avionics suite cheap (to get one over the English)?
French: Rather...!

I'm NOT taking bets (at any odds) that history will repeat itself. Why don't we reserve Eurofighter Typhoon for customers with plenty of money. Instead of bending over backwards, displaying abject desperation to get contracts at any price, why don't we just tell half the world "You're not getting our good stuff because you don't give us [UK] the respect we deserve, and you don't have enough money to buy such high tech weaponry etc?" Then we'll throw into the mix that foreign aid packages are being reviewed in light of certain countries attitudes to UK, and some counries aid will be cut or terminated. We might find a few more countries determined to show the world that they're wealthy enough to buy. It's called playing them at their game. When they don't play by the nice rules, then we can't afford to either.

Couple of quick points.

Is the dialogue that you mentioned, a real fact or is it fiction.

You were in the negotiation of the deals and that is why it reminds you of them?

If they are facts could you furnish authentic details so that one could file a PIL (Public Interest Litigation) in the Indian Court?

As far as playing by the rules, I like your gall, where, you as the seller, wants the buyer to play by your rules!

That itself, logically, indicates the audacity to re-define market equations!

If it were that there was just one aircraft in the market, then maybe one would have to agree with the seller's rules. But sadly, the aircrafts offered were so adequate that one thought they had entered Walmart! Hardly a scenario, where the seller can dictate that one has to play by the seller's rule. Forgive me, one cannot get more ridiculous!

"You're not getting our good stuff because you don't give us [UK] the respect we deserve, and you don't have enough money to buy such high tech weaponry etc?"

I think you are being delusional because of pique that India does not have the money.