English as a Second Language

**Accidental_discharge** · 31-07-2010, 02:43

Not sure if this belongs here, however here goes.

Born in England, educated in England to post secondary, joined the British Army, served 10, left, relocated to Canada, studied Engineering in the US of A, studied Nursing at the University of Calgary (BN) instructed in English at an English speaking university, in an English speaking country. Now I am returning to Britain from Canada, and I have been informed by the NMC that I will only be allowed to work if I sit and pass an English as a Second Language exmination. What the F***k?

**smartascarrots** · 31-07-2010, 03:00

Sadly, they're not making this shit up for the sake of it. Just because you've been Canada-trained ain't unfortunately a guarantee of your English proficiency. I can vouch personally for US graduates whose English proficiency is utterly crap.

**Whet** · 31-07-2010, 03:05

The public and parliament (and many on here), demanded that all immigrants prove that they can speak english proficiently before being allowed in. The last government heard the voices of the people and brought it into effect.

**Accidental_discharge** · 31-07-2010, 03:11

Originally Posted by Whet

The public and parliament (and many on here), demanded that all immigrants prove that they can speak english proficiently before being allowed in. The last government heard the voices of the people and brought it into effect.

Don't tar me with the immigrant brush, I am a British Citizen, born and raised! Granted my old man is an ex Black Watch porridge w*g, and Mater is from Hull.....Oh, answered my own question!

Unlike you Whet, I actually want to work and have something to offer!

Re-read the post, I said NMC, not government, it is quite obvious that your English is crap, and is the reason you are an idle benifit scrounger.

**Accidental_discharge** · 31-07-2010, 03:21

Originally Posted by smartascarrots

Sadly, they're not making this shit up for the sake of it. Just because you've been Canada-trained ain't unfortunately a guarantee of your English proficiency. I can vouch personally for US graduates whose English proficiency is utterly crap.

Mind, if I came from Italy, and spoke not one word of the Queen's English, I would not be required to sit the exam, and would be granted registration without any question!

Countries with English as the official language are required to sit English as a second language, whereas countries that speak no English can registration without question. I do understand that I come from Hull, and that can some times impede my ability to speak in an intelligent manner.

**Whet** · 31-07-2010, 03:23

My apologies, I assumed you had assumed Canadian citizenship - but as Clarissa was told, it makes an ass out of you and me both. Nonetheless, my point stands - people coming into the country from elsewhere are forced to take an english test. You came into the country from a foreign one, whinging won't change anything.

**smartascarrots** · 31-07-2010, 03:23

Yep, maybe so. But it still doesn't matter.

The average Brit school leaver can't function at the IELTS=7.0 level required of a practising nurse, so the argument that you were born and raised here doesn't meet the legally-mandated requirements of a practicing nurse.

My missus is a native Mandarin-speaker yet scored better than I did when we took the test and I'm fairly well educated. It really doesn't matter what background you have, it doesn't automatically translate to the function you're applying for since everyday conversation isn't the same as professional language use. The litigious society that the UK has turned into doesn't help either.

Having seen some of the characters that come in from the anglophone world looking to study for NMC-accredited qualifications, I can't say I blame them for protecting themselves from legal action.

**Accidental_discharge** · 31-07-2010, 03:27

Originally Posted by Whet

My apologies, I assumed you had assumed Canadian citizenship - but as Clarissa was told, it makes an ass out of you and me both. Nonetheless, my point stands - people coming into the country from elsewhere are forced to take an english test. You came into the country from a foreign one, whinging won't change anything.

Sorry, the NMC does not require Germans, French, Belgians, Welsh, Italians, Turks etc. etc. ad nauseum to take any test proving English language ability.

I also agree wholeheartedly that a large group of supposed Anglophones have the linguistic ablility of Scooby Doo.

**Accidental_discharge** · 31-07-2010, 03:31

Originally Posted by Whet

My apologies, I assumed you had assumed Canadian citizenship - but as Clarissa was told, it makes an ass out of you and me both. Nonetheless, my point stands - people coming into the country from elsewhere are forced to take an english test. You came into the country from a foreign one, whinging won't change anything.

I do have Canadian citizenship, but, I also have British citizenship. Dual citizenship don'cha know. Although the Canadian one is quite recent.

**smartascarrots** · 31-07-2010, 03:32

Originally Posted by Accidental_discharge

Mind, if I came from Italy, and spoke not one word of the Queen's English, I would not be required to sit the exam, and would be granted registration without any question!

And if the NMC were allowed under UK law to ask for the same IELTS from these punters, then believe me they would. But they're not and can only act to protect the UK public from incompetent nurses in those fields in which they are allowed to.

I can appreciate that you're pissed off but you have to look at it from the other side. A Canadian qualification and a UK secondary education are not of themselves proof that you have the language abilities required of a British nurse. You'd think they ought to but they aren't and have been proved not to be.

**Accidental_discharge** · 31-07-2010, 04:09

Originally Posted by smartascarrots

And if the NMC were allowed under UK law to ask for the same IELTS from these punters, then believe me they would. But they're not and can only act to protect the UK public from incompetent nurses in those fields in which they are allowed to.

I can appreciate that you're pissed off but you have to look at it from the other side. A Canadian qualification and a UK secondary education are not of themselves proof that you have the language abilities required of a British nurse. You'd think they ought to but they aren't and have been proved not to be.

I totally get what you are saying, and understand the motivation behind it. In Canada, we also request that nationals of non English speaking countries sit the English as a Second Language exam. We do not however, ask that nationals of English speakings countries sit the exam. We work on the basis that the standards of training in those countries are as high as they are in Canada, that one must be at a certain level of ability to be accepted into university (that is the downfall).
After acting in the role of preceptor for numerous British nurses coming here, it is with disapointment that I must say the NMC must accept that other English speaking countries sometimes operate to a higher standard. The majority of British nurses coming to Canada appear to be out of their depth and need a rather considerable amount of further training/teaching.

Mind, in future when people tell me I am talking shite, I can hold up my certificate and proudly say "no my good man, I am speaking English!".

**smartascarrots** · 31-07-2010, 04:26

I think the quote goes: "It's a huge shit sandwich and we're all goin' ta have ta take a bite".

Would you believe there are universities in the UK admitting to MScs on the strength of IELTS 6.0? For reasons of 'market positioning', of course - not academic integrity. Roll on retirement is all I can say.

Incidentally, does Canada ask for proof of proficiency from English-speaking countries like Nigeria?

**Accidental_discharge** · 31-07-2010, 04:56

Originally Posted by smartascarrots

I think the quote goes: "It's a huge shit sandwich and we're all goin' ta have ta take a bite".

Would you believe there are universities in the UK admitting to MScs on the strength of IELTS 6.0? For reasons of 'market positioning', of course - not academic integrity. Roll on retirement is all I can say.

Incidentally, does Canada ask for proof of proficiency from English-speaking countries like Nigeria?

It will ask for proof that the university of school trains to an acceptable standard.
Of course the ability to mass generate emails and share huge pots of wealth with everyone must count for something.
I will correct myself and say civilized English speaking countries!
Pooh sarnie? Sounds tasty!

**RoofRat** · 31-07-2010, 15:14

Sorry,I thought this heading was all about our school leavers,who seem to have great difficulty speaking english,per se.

**exbleep** · 31-07-2010, 15:26

The requirement is for all non-EU citizens to take the test. Agreed, a load of toss and is the reason why we have a couple of high profile GP locums failing to either understand what the patient is saying or failing to explain to the patient what they needed to do (I think recent cases involved a German and a French locum). We had, variously, Indian, Lithuanian, Pakistani and Nigerian locums - all with perfect English - who had to take the test but a French one did not. The only complaint we had to lodge was against the French one who, quite frankly, was utterly useless and all his patients had to be seen by another GP to ensure they had been treated correctly.
I hope this government tells the EU to get stuffed and insists on all EU GPS taking an English test before being allowed to practice but I am not holding my breath. In your case, I'm afraid commonsense is not something bureaucrats can include in their CVs.