I'm going from memory here (and its early) but:-

Werent the two unfortunate Brits JJH mentions on duty? (ie operational snafu/bad luck leading to the tragic events)

Whereas the two sailors were reported not to be on duty?

I'm not trying to tarnish the two sailors names...even if they were off-duty and it was naivety in action then they didnt deserve what happened too them. And I'm not saying 'stupid yanks' our American friends have no monopoly on bizarre or unexpected behaviour.

Tin foil hat on :- I would hope that if two servicemen died in the line of duty, out doing something sneaky, then it would be reported as such even if it were a 'training accident' or simply 'KIA' details withheld for security and damn the wikileaks. In fact if if wikileaks mere presence makes that likely...

Howes and Woods were on duty, returning from doing some work at North Howard Street Mill. They were on a handover as one of them, I forget which, had come to the end of his tour. They went to watch the funeral procession of the 3 people killed by Stone at the funeral of the Gibraltar three a couple of days previously. They were not there operationally. The route had been place OB by 39 Bde to all troops to allow Sinn Fein to police it themselves, hence no green army nearby. They were unlucky as the locals were being extra vigilant because of Stone. Long series of bad luck decisions and actions by the 2 and they got caught. Result, tragedy of 2 dead soldiers who probably thought what they were doing was a good idea at the time. Perhaps that is the only similarity between the 2 stories but the loss is just as sad.

Jabber>

I stand corrected. Cheers.

Both events tragic accidents then.

Maybe the sad story of the three jocks(two were brothers) out on the piss in Ligoniel who got invited to go back with a girl,all of them ended up getting executed on a roadside ditch,doesn´t get the memory buds going as much as the two `spare´scaley´s as it wasn´t live on telly,

RIP to all,even the daft and the `adventurous´ ones.

There, but for the Grace of God go most of us!

Originally Posted by Jabber

Howes and Woods were on duty, returning from doing some work at North Howard Street Mill. They were on a handover as one of them, I forget which, had come to the end of his tour. They went to watch the funeral procession of the 3 people killed by Stone at the funeral of the Gibraltar three a couple of days previously. They were not there operationally. The route had been place OB by 39 Bde to all troops to allow Sinn Fein to police it themselves, hence no green army nearby. They were unlucky as the locals were being extra vigilant because of Stone. Long series of bad luck decisions and actions by the 2 and they got caught. Result, tragedy of 2 dead soldiers who probably thought what they were doing was a good idea at the time. Perhaps that is the only similarity between the 2 stories but the loss is just as sad.

As I was careful to acknowledge in my reference to this horrible crime that still haunts me (and I would hope any human being who watched that horrific film), there are obviously details that differentiate the two situations. Before any others posters get distracted over these details (on or off duty etc. etc.) my SOLE reason in even mentioning such a painful incident was to remind those who may have forgotten how soldiers, Marines , sailors and even crabs can make decisions that ultimately prove tragic ( and IMHO and a little experience as an infantry leader it makes no difference to my point what their duty status was) and that can be questioned or criticiz(s)ed by us later with the "perfect" (and to some it seems, haughty) hindsight.

Originally Posted by jumpinjarhead

Without in any means besmirching their memories in terms of any differences in detail between their horrible end and that of the 2 sailors in this recent tragedy, I wonder if some of the posters on this and other threads who have apparently taken such a keen and often quite critical interest in the sailors' circumstances, were of similar mind in 1988 about the two misfortunate British soldiers--if they were even born I might add. For those who seem to have diffculty in understanding my apparently overly obtuse points, I hope this one is crystal clear. If not perhaps some of you real soldiers who served during that time can speak to that occurrence for the others who may be unaware of that horrible day.

Very much born and remember it well, watched it live on the telly in the mess. And like most of the other blokes in I was shouting with rage all right, and shouting at them to shoot some of the ringleaders and scatter the crowd rather than wave their guns about. As soon as the crowd realized they weren't going to be shot, they redoubled their efforts to get them.

However, we digress, these two were not off on a jolly like the two US sailors seem to have been in a FAR more dangerous environment.

Originally Posted by jumpinjarhead

As I was careful to acknowledge in my reference to this horrible crime that still haunts me (and I would hope any human being who watched that horrific film), there are obviously details that differentiate the two situations. Before any others posters get distracted over these details (on or off duty etc. etc.) my SOLE reason in even mentioning such a painful incident was to remind those who may have forgotten how soldiers, Marines , sailors and even crabs can make decisions that ultimately prove tragic ( and IMHO and a little experience as an infantry leader it makes no difference to my point what their duty status was) and that can be questioned or criticiz(s)ed by us later with the "perfect" (and to some it seems, haughty) hindsight.

Our two had an operational reason to be outside and other than bad luck were going to be invisible to the population, your two had no reason to be outside and it was impossible for them to merge into the general population.

It's one thing to get brave and nip down the shops in your own country were you'll not be noticed and look like any other local. It's a WHOLE different thing to go for a jolly to a bazaar in a very hot warzone were you will stand out not only by your vehicle but your appearance like a beacon and it's impossible to merge with a hostile civilian population.

Originally Posted by Semper_Flexibilis

Very much born and remember it well, watched it live on the telly in the mess. And like most of the other blokes in I was shouting with rage all right, and shouting at them to shoot some of the ringleaders and scatter the crowd rather than wave their guns about. As soon as the crowd realized they weren't going to be shot, they redoubled their efforts to get them.

However, we digress, these two were not off on a jolly like the two US sailors seem to have been in a FAR more dangerous environment.






Our two had an operational reason to be outside and other than bad luck were going to be invisible to the population, your two had no reason to be outside and it was impossible for them to merge into the general population.

It's one thing to get brave and nip down the shops in your own country were you'll not be noticed and look like any other local. It's a WHOLE different thing to go for a jolly to a bazaar in a very hot warzone were you will stand out not only by your vehicle but your appearance like a beacon and it's impossible to merge with a hostile civilian population.

It is difficult to tell on this means of communication if your are reading-impaired or have some cognitive deficit. In either event, however, your posts certainly suggest a different operational and troop leading experience than my own humble one and some ego needs that apparently can only be met in such manly fora as threads on ARRSE.

Originally Posted by jumpinjarhead

It is difficult to tell on this means of communication if your are reading-impaired or have some cognitive deficit. In either event, however, your posts certainly suggest a different operational and troop leading experience than my own humble one and some ego needs that apparently can only be met in such manly fora as threads on ARRSE.

Blah, blah, blah, I led troops, blah, blah, blah.


And you're point is what again other than whining because I won't spout faux outrage over two US sailors who did something terminally stupid in a place were doing terminally stupid things wins you terminal prizes?

Like to many Americans, you seem mortally outraged that the 'bad guys' had the affront to kill your blokes in anything other than a mano y mano confrontation with your guys in LAVS with shedloads of aircover on an properly constituted offensive op.

Just a few comments from me on this meandering thread:

1. RIP the guys.
2. No I don't think there is much furore over their deaths, either because the details are unknown yet and because almost no matter what has happened, nobody expects anything but the worst from the arsseholes.
3. Quizzing JJH on blue-on-blue, either A10's in Iraq 1991, 2003, Patriots in 2003 or F16's in Afghanistan 2002(?) on the Cannucks is not only pointless, its not just us that get popped by the USAF, they pop themselves fairly regularly and don't get all teary eyed about it. In no way do I think it is acceptable but at least they are consistant with their view that "sh!t happens in war, we hoped it wouldn't, we try to prevent it but it happens". That we are far more careful comes down to a level of professionalism (its easier to have a professional military our size than one 10 times larger like the yanks). This isn't a pop at the US, its just their acceptable intake standards and pass marks are lower to generate a higher volume of soldiers. It is what it is.
4. I think you'll find the yanks did sign the 1949 Geneva Convention but not all the updates since which does make the yanks legally able to do things that we can't legally do. I believe this specifically covers "Basic principles of the legal status of combatants struggling against Colonial and Alien Dominiation" and other bits and pieces which would have been a bit tricky whilst they were in Vietnam. They do 'try' to follow all the principles but they don't have to.
5. I am VERY sure that any individuals that break the GC are no longer protected by the GC and as such make themselves targets, likewise, I'm pretty sure only GC signee countries are eligible for GC niceties should they go to war. I am reasonably sure that Talib and AQ who are now fighting their own governments are not soldiers but criminals. Not sure of the rules here.
6.

A Brit US pissing contest is embarrassing under the circumstances, some of you should be ashamed of yourselves, think how you would feel if that was you in the news and fellow soldiers were gobbing off like this for your family to come across and read on the internet, as they surely will, in the future? Get a grip.

Seconded.
7.

It's one thing to get brave and nip down the shops in your own country were you'll not be noticed and look like any other local. It's a WHOLE different thing to go for a jolly to a bazaar in a very hot warzone were you will stand out not only by your vehicle but your appearance like a beacon and it's impossible to merge with a hostile civilian population.

CLEARLY you haven't seen GreenZone yet with Matt Damon

Originally Posted by Semper_Flexibilis

Like to[o] (sic) many Americans

I thought so...no point in continuing.