Useful

**REMFQuestions** · 24-07-2010, 18:23

Originally Posted by Semper_Flexibilis

ISRAEL NATIONAL NEWS ^ | Aug 11, '06 | not attributed
Posted on 11 August 2006 14:05:24 GMT+01:00 by APRPEH

(IsraelNN.com) IDF officials admit that the biggest surprise of the ongoing war against Hizbullah is the ease by which terrorists have destroyed IDF tanks.

At least 30 tanks have been totally destroyed or seriously damaged in bomb and anti-tank rocket attacks involving state-of-the-art Russian anti-tank rockets.

About one-half of the military personnel killed in southern Lebanon were inside tanks.

(Israeli losses were 121 killed)

Saved me a job. Thanks mate - nothing more to add here other than I hope Bloodloss will be man enough to admit his mistake.

And to reiterate a point. Tanks cannot hold ground. Only individuals (IE troops) can hold ground. That is why we use Combined Arms Battalions / Brigades.

**Caecilius** · 24-07-2010, 18:34

Originally Posted by REMFQuestions

Saved me a job. Thanks mate - nothing more to add here other than I hope Bloodloss will be man enough to admit his mistake.

And to reiterate a point. Tanks cannot hold ground. Only individuals (IE troops) can hold ground. That is why we use Combined Arms Battalions / Brigades.

I wonder if anything could seriously hold ground in a conventional war. The last time we fought a war against a well equipped enemy, we lost some reasonably serious numbers and technology has moved on leaps and bounds since then. Armour is redundant or close to it, technology exists to defeat comms and computer networks and we have easily deployable weapons which can easily erase a city block.

I seriously question whether truly symmetrical warfare isn't a thing of the past simply due to the massive destructive power avaliable in deployable packages.

**Yokel** · 24-07-2010, 18:37

Aren't we forgetting the psychological impact of 65 tonnes of MBT sitting on your doorstep?

**Caecilius** · 24-07-2010, 18:40

Originally Posted by Yokel

Aren't we forgetting the psychological impact of 65 tonnes of MBT sitting on your doorstep?

What would you say about the psychological impact of doing this to it?

YouTube - Javelin Missile & T72 Tank

Edited to insert a better video.

**REMFQuestions** · 24-07-2010, 18:43

What psyche impact? Let it sit there. I would be more upset if soldiers kicked down my door and dragged my family out of bed. Also, what good is sitting on ground when soldiers have dug fire trenches in which they can just batten the hatches and let you roll over them.

Tank warfare between developed nations is finished and tankies might not like it but it's the truth. The only thing tanks are useful for now is surviving IED strikes.

**Majorpain** · 24-07-2010, 18:45

Originally Posted by Caecilius

What would you say about the psychological impact of doing this to it? (watch from 28 seconds)

YouTube - FGM-148 Javelin Anti-Tank Missile

Please ignore the annyoing music/effects. Its the only version of that video that I can find on youtube.

Russians have already brought in a countermeasure:

Shtora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the missile cant see it, it cant blow it up.

Its alot harder to hide from a Challenger, whose human crew will be able to remember that you are hiding somewhere in that smoke screen, and will give you the good news when you re-appear!

**Caecilius** · 24-07-2010, 18:50

Originally Posted by Majorpain

Russians have already brought in a countermeasure:

Shtora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the missile cant see it, it cant blow it up.

Its alot harder to hide from a Challenger, whose human crew will be able to remember that you are hiding somewhere in that smoke screen, and will give you the good news when you re-appear!

Javelin can defeat that system to the best of my knowledge...

**Semper_Flexibilis** · 24-07-2010, 18:52

Originally Posted by alib

Agree with your general point. I'll quibble with this.

The Hamas militiamen the IDF easily trounced in Cast Lead were poorly led, badly armed and have a history of being far better at killing other Pals than IDF soldiers. That was basically a raid on a densely crammed prison camp.

HA in the 06 were a far tougher proposition. It's been compared to fighting the Japanese Imperial Army on Okinawa. The Israelis were over confident, badly prepared and used their tanks foolishly. Such complacency is a risk of routinely hammering not very able Pals.

The Afghan talibans and the Haqqani network in particular has some pretty capable guys, particularly when it comes to ambushes. They've had decades of practice.

Bloodloss ignore that fact that in Gaza, if the IDF detected any signs of enemy fighters, rather than engage them with infantry or tanks, they would bomb, shell and flatten entire areas of houses leaving nothing much bigger than pea shingle and sod the civvies in the area. Demolishing an entire street to kill one sniper and killing 50 civs and making another few hundred homeless is hardly the sign of a military high up on 'prowess'.