Thread: Civil Serpants £300M bonuses

Originally Posted by twitter

I do care ,Our troops safety as to come first before civil servants can claim expenses /bonus .

You obviously don't read to well.

Expenses are paid to cover out of pocket expense no matter if you are Military or Civilian and are paid at the same rate these days. Do you really expect someone to pay for there own fuel when driving somewhere on their employers business?

CS Bonus is not a bonus as in the banking world, but performance related pay that is not pensionable. It comes from the same budget as all salaries come from and the CS unions have been campaigning against it for years. If it was binned tomorrow I don't think to many people would shed a tear and instead of the blow inflation pay rise the CS usually gets they might actually get the same as everyone else in the public sector.

Originally Posted by Baldrick66

Originally Posted by twitter

I do care ,Our troops safety as to come first before civil servants can claim expenses /bonus .

You obviously don't read to well.

Expenses are paid to cover out of pocket expense no matter if you are Military or Civilian and are paid at the same rate these days. Do you really expect someone to pay for there own fuel when driving somewhere on their employers business?.

No i don't expect someone to pay for their own fuel when driving somewhere on their employers business yes you should be able to claim for expenses .
But i do object to people being paid large bonus which are also being paid out on top of expenses when it as already been stated that the money could be spent on our soldiers safety

"Government by media - must be close to the end of the current regime"

There is a By-Election today in Glasgow, I dont think thats gone un-noticed by Gordon, with this announcement and that of this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...n-says-PM.html

[quote="AFA06"]Why is this thread full of CS dribbling on about how little they are paid? Were you not switched on enough to ask the recruiter how much the pay was before you signed the dotted line?

I knew how much my wage would be when I started after leaving another low paid job (the Army). I took this job because it is 5 minutes from my house it has good perks ie pension. I get both weekends and days off at diiferent times to the rest of the working world, I enjoy my job and it had provided me with a comfortable standard of living. I am not dribbling on about my wage from the perspective you suggest its just to show that not all CS are high earners receiving fat bonuses and that I for both empathise and sympathise with Forces personnel who quite rightly are pis5ed off about this culture of large bonuses. If you didnt get that from my initial thread then I apologise.

Originally Posted by twitter

Flash my O.H. and his mates safety is more important than people receiving expenses /bonus

Liar. You don't have an 'OH'. You dont even have an 'other half' of your head. Now be a good trolling mong and go away.

Originally Posted by Gun_Nut

Well, angry as I am about how this nonsense has been reported, I have to admit that the Opposition have pulled a blinder here. The entire media is singing their tune, building their image of a fat MoD that needs cutting by one third.

And as usual the Press Office has been entirely flat footed, allowing Ministers to spout drivel about operational allowances and Gordon Brown saying that he will look at the 'problem' that he himself introduced as Chancellor!

As I said earlier:

Originally Posted by A2_Matelot

This is simply some incredibly bad journalism latching onto a non-story and tarnishing the MOD collectively even further and perhaps more importantly driving a bigger wedge between the CS and the Uniformed. At a time when the SDR is being worked up it just makes MOD look even riper for further cuts/rationalisation which will help no-one.

Someone in the Corporate Communications desks at MOD MB need to get a grip on this and start briefing the right line.

Originally Posted by twitter

Originally Posted by asr1

I couldn't care less. A taxed bonus of 1k is an expenses claim, not a bonus!

I do care ,Our troops safety as to come first before civil servants can claim expenses /bonus .

Sorry, have to disagree here.

OK - a few points to clarify my response:

1. It is largely accepted that the CS bonus payment scheme is poorly managed due to a poorly conceived concept driven by a poorly briefed Chancellor at the time (it just happened to be McRuin).

2. Even the majority of the CS laugh at the fact they get a bonus that essentially buys a Christmas Hamper (post tax) merely for turning up for work.

3. The majority of the CS see this scheme as bonkers. But why rock the boat?

Remember, these people are paid much less than servicemen and women, they get little for their everyday lives.....but, please tell me how you motivate a workforce that gets paid less than market rate, is not punished for failure, has no business acumen or direction because it is pulled by the political whimsy of the day, is overburdened with contrary legislation imposed by Government and has a union that basically expects/demands its members to work to rule. Further, you then give them a very impressive pension package, favourable allowances and maternity benefit, the right to go on career courses, etc and then wonder why they are not motivated to change?

I don't blame them for their behaviours, those behaviours are unfortunate but they have little reason to modify them.

So in terms of Value for Money (VfM), give me a MoD CS paid at £18k p.a with a £250 p.a bonus to do the same handle churning admin stuff that we do not want servicemen and women (who cost much more - mid range LCpl £21k, Young Cpl - £26k; all not including LOA, Op allowances, etc) to do, so we have more skin to fight the wars.

So pse enlighten me how that fails the VfM test? I say give them their little bonuses and low wages, but don't expect them to work as hard as you do as they simply are not incentivised.

I am no lefty supporter of the CS, but I do see their value that they bring to the Forces, we should recognise their shortcomings and exploit their strengths.

Bottom line: You want a lean, mean, efficient CS? Slice it in half but keep the payroll budget, get rid of the deadwood and homework markers out there and behave like a real business. Hire top commercial people to wallop industry on contracts, hire top flight programme mangers to deliver them (and these people cost to retain), incentivise them, bonus them and be ruthless with underperformance. It will never happen, but that is the DS answer.

Yes civil serpants get shit wages, but when i do get my pension the one coming from the tax payer is twice that of the one i get from British Airways, for the same amount of service and without having it taken from my wages. Had i transferred my service pension i could probably retire now. Another benefit was the job security, plus the fact that when i was made redundant £21K is a lot better than a months wages.

Originally Posted by pombsen-armchair-warrior

Originally Posted by Twice-the-man

Originally Posted by jim30

BPS – you do raise some good points. I don’t expect the average Tom to understand what the CS does, or why it does it. If Pte Bloggs could tell me that sort of thing, then, frankly, I’d be very worried!

Originally Posted by jim30

The problem is two-fold – firstly it’s a lack of education for the Armed Forces about what the MOD CS does. There is no point that I know until reasonably far up the staff college world that we actually sit down and explain to Officers what it is that the random MOD CS is there to do. Secondly, I think it is wrong that ICSC(L) will not allow any places to serving MOD CS – the best way for the army to understand why CS think the way they do, and more importantly for MOD CS to get the army way of thinking, is to work together at the junior staff level.

Despite what people think, the MOD is focused on delivering to the front line – its just that sometimes this message isn’t sold very well. For instance, UORs are a great example of that sort of work, but so is the unsung work done by all the admin guys in ammo depots, or storage areas ensuring that spares are loaded on and got out to theatre. Having worked in this world, I can assure you that things go wrong, not because a CS can’t be arrsed, but usually for major reasons far beyond the ability of a CS to influence. The problem is, that its easier to sit there and blame the CS for all the worlds failings, rather than look deeper into the problem (thinking here about the classic case of UOR vehicle spares, when delays in getting spares, attributed in the press to “pen pushers� were actually a result of pressures on the manufacturers in the USA).

I think deploying MOD CS on Ops has been absolutely brilliant – I’ve done a tour as a deployed CS and loved it. Its helped many CS understand the pressures that the forces are under, and more importantly for the future, because completing an Op Tour is now seen as a pre-requisite for promotion to senior levels, we are slowly ensuring that future MOD decision makers are likely to have got real, and often multiple periods, of operational experience. Of course being in Theatre isn’t the same as being on the pointy end facing Terry down a bayonet, but every CS I know who has deployed has been through their fair share of mortaring and other unpleasant experiences. This means that we’re not sitting here in an ivory tower of ignorance – we’ve been out there, we know (to a point) what life is like, and believe it or not, we’re on your side. It may seem hard to believe at times, but trust me when I say that the average CS (stand fast the genuine PITAs) wants to do all they can to support the front line, but we find it just as frustrating to deal with shortages and budget cuts as you do. Ultimately though, we are all bound by the decisions of our political masters.

Ooooh get you, precious cnut!

Originally Posted by Twice-the-man

Hello.

New to this site and I don't know if its a bit necky of a red arrse to start a new topic but wasn't sure where to post this:

Just had a look at the ARRSEpedia stuff about the different 'walts' and I would like to thank whoever took the time to compile that as it is some of the funniest things I've ever read. The ACF CSM from Lancashire who was having the correspondence with the 'American girl' he thought he was grooming....I genuinely had to dry my eyes. The picture of him and the 2 God-knows-what 'cavalry' troopers...........

Sir, I salute you. Just wanted to show my appreciation.

It's not often a wish comes true.

What the fcuk does that mean you Joey????? Delving into old archived posts, well done me owd!

There seems to be a growing media perception (or is it perpetuation?) of the myth that all MOD CS personnel are pen pushers sitting in plush armchairs in Whitehall. We need to remind them that we not only require the CS to administer Forces pay, pensions (hurrah!) and allowances but also to:

*Manage and run service establishments, armament depots, oil fuel depots, victualling stores, firing ranges, MT pools, army camps, airfields, naval bases, service accommodation, etc.
*Arrange transport for service personnel and materiel
*Operate laboratories, medical centres, sea ranges, fleet support vessels and harbour/seagoing auxiliaries
*Organise the maintenance and repair of ships, aircraft, tanks and other vehicles
*Provide logistic support for our troops in theatre and elsewhere
*Procure, trial, assess, issue and update military systems and equipment
*Perform operational anylysis and tactical development
*Conduct research and development... etc, etc, etc.

Contractors already help perform many of these tasks but if the Government cuts any more of the CS so-called 'tail', then the Armed Forces 'teeth' will no longer be able to operate effectively and everyone can go home. This will result in massive savings all round. (Oops, did I say that out loud?)

Originally Posted by A2_Matelot

Originally Posted by Skynet

Tell me about this cheap housing schooling and medical care? Housing is the average of all council house rents in UK. (see AFPRB report) Medical care is the same as civilians get and they pay the same NI for it. Cheap schooling really? Please explain?

That all depends on where you are in the UK, my MQ is about 1/3rd the local rent of a similar property.

Cheap schooling - how else am I going to afford a decent private school education for my sprogs?

Medical Care - free prescriptions add up; you get accelerated private care (when required) and don't pay for it and ultimately our DMS people provide a very good standard of healthcare for us - far superior to civvies.

Dentistry - had a filling lately or a crown. Chuffing expensive.

Originally Posted by mnairb

'cheap housing, cheap schooling, free medical care etc.' - A2_Matelot seems to be confusing the British Forces with the Americans. He will be telling us that the forces don't pay tax next (another commonly held belief).

You really don't recognise some of the benefits of what we receive as part of our overall package?

Regarding education the type of boarding school affordable on the BSA is in many ways no better than many state schools. It just happens to be boarding and certainly my son had been to six schools by the time he was 12. Boarding secondary education was therefore a must if continuity was to be maintained. Certainly BSA was not overly generous and just about paid for it. The MOD know well that if BSA was not available many officers and SNCos would put the education of their children first and leave. The CS foreign Office and other government departments who require great flexibility from their workforce pay much more generous allowances and so do many big international companies either in pay or allowences.

Now onto free prescriptions. Forces personnel are generally very healthy and don't require much in the way of medication. Most medication expense is on the 50 plus age group which are a very small % of the forces. Once again dental expenses are more a problem with the 50 plus group. I would hope that DMS do provide a good standard of healthcare considering current operational casualty rate. However do I presume that day to day healthcare in the FOBS does not match what I get at my local GPS surgery? Of course service personnel pay the same subs as anyone else in the country and certainly primary care can not be the same standard as that of UK when on operations.

Not a good deal really!

Regarding housing in the public rented centre forces housing ranks ranks the lowest in maintenance standards and of course you have little choice in choosing your location (defence select committee was scathing on the standards of service housing in comparison with other public sector housing)

Originally Posted by Twice-the-man

Originally Posted by pombsen-armchair-warrior

Originally Posted by Twice-the-man

Originally Posted by jim30

BPS – you do raise some good points. I don’t expect the average Tom to understand what the CS does, or why it does it. If Pte Bloggs could tell me that sort of thing, then, frankly, I’d be very worried!

The problem is two-fold – firstly it’s a lack of education for the Armed Forces about what the MOD CS does. There is no point that I know until reasonably far up the staff college world that we actually sit down and explain to Officers what it is that the random MOD CS is there to do. Secondly, I think it is wrong that ICSC(L) will not allow any places to serving MOD CS – the best way for the army to understand why CS think the way they do, and more importantly for MOD CS to get the army way of thinking, is to work together at the junior staff level.

Despite what people think, the MOD is focused on delivering to the front line – its just that sometimes this message isn’t sold very well. For instance, UORs are a great example of that sort of work, but so is the unsung work done by all the admin guys in ammo depots, or storage areas ensuring that spares are loaded on and got out to theatre. Having worked in this world, I can assure you that things go wrong, not because a CS can’t be arrsed, but usually for major reasons far beyond the ability of a CS to influence. The problem is, that its easier to sit there and blame the CS for all the worlds failings, rather than look deeper into the problem (thinking here about the classic case of UOR vehicle spares, when delays in getting spares, attributed in the press to “pen pushers� were actually a result of pressures on the manufacturers in the USA).

I think deploying MOD CS on Ops has been absolutely brilliant – I’ve done a tour as a deployed CS and loved it. Its helped many CS understand the pressures that the forces are under, and more importantly for the future, because completing an Op Tour is now seen as a pre-requisite for promotion to senior levels, we are slowly ensuring that future MOD decision makers are likely to have got real, and often multiple periods, of operational experience. Of course being in Theatre isn’t the same as being on the pointy end facing Terry down a bayonet, but every CS I know who has deployed has been through their fair share of mortaring and other unpleasant experiences. This means that we’re not sitting here in an ivory tower of ignorance – we’ve been out there, we know (to a point) what life is like, and believe it or not, we’re on your side. It may seem hard to believe at times, but trust me when I say that the average CS (stand fast the genuine PITAs) wants to do all they can to support the front line, but we find it just as frustrating to deal with shortages and budget cuts as you do. Ultimately though, we are all bound by the decisions of our political masters.

Ooooh get you, precious cnut!

Originally Posted by Twice-the-man

Hello.

New to this site and I don't know if its a bit necky of a red arrse to start a new topic but wasn't sure where to post this:

Just had a look at the ARRSEpedia stuff about the different 'walts' and I would like to thank whoever took the time to compile that as it is some of the funniest things I've ever read. The ACF CSM from Lancashire who was having the correspondence with the 'American girl' he thought he was grooming....I genuinely had to dry my eyes. The picture of him and the 2 God-knows-what 'cavalry' troopers...........

Sir, I salute you. Just wanted to show my appreciation.

It's not often a wish comes true.

What the fcuk does that mean you Joey????? Delving into old archived posts, well done me owd!

Originally Posted by Twice-the-man

Ooooh get you, precious cnut!

......which rounds the exchange off nicely.

May as well add my tuppence worth. Served 27 years and then 13 as a chairborne warrior [lets call it R&D]. During those last years PRP was introduced and the CS wage structure was changed with the grade structure becoming complicated. As JIM30 has said, it was and looks like it still is devisive and in my day caused much resentment as the clipboard carriers/golf with the boss/3 hours outside a week smoke merchants seemed to get the extra dosh whilst us with our noses to the grindstone...........
Needless to say I never got a penny, probably something to do with my 'new fangled' mission statement [another piece of cr@p to come out of an American business school and enthusiastically taken up by the CS] which was stuck on my door and just said "SBDD"
Still, the 30 grand severance and enhanced pension 11 years ago was very nice.

Originally Posted by Winstanley

This whole 'controversy' arises from ignorance. First - the total bonuses paid are part of the planned annual wage bill. It is just the way the Civil Service works. If the bonuses were removed, they would simply be divided up equally and added to salaries. Secondly, as a serving soldier, I find it offensive that my civilian colleagues are called 'pen pushers'. Sure, there are some civvie MOD jobs that are a waste of time, but they are rare exceptions. All the civil servants I work with do a brilliant job supporting the military. And, if they weren't there, uniformed staff would have to do their jobs instead - which would be far more expensive to the taxpayer.

I do hope the press and those overly simplistic conservative politicians stop creating mythical stories and concentrate on bashing Brown with other sticks. The bottom line is that we civilianised the base area and a large majority of existing CS posts release expensive military types to deploy. I think this whole argument is going to cause further loss of morale in the CS - which is not benificial to the troops on the front line.

Originally Posted by pombsen-armchair-warrior

Yet another non-issue elevated into the public domain, and which can only damage the military long-term. We used to be seen as people who delivered whatever, and however unfair, the circumstance.

There is now a real danger of public fatigue with the military - not a day now goes by without some accusation of 'Tommy' being treated badly, most of them utterly trivial issues.

Are we becoming that which we used to detest in the civilian world - serial whingers and whiners?

PAW,

This is something I have thought is likely to happen for some time now. The public will tire and the fortunate position we find ourselves in will be swept away. We really do need to be careful of biting the hand that feeds us - even the Prime Minister saw people rallying to him over the whole sorry condolence letter affair.