Thread: Civil Serpants £300M bonuses

Looks like another Socialst 'divide and conquer ploy'

Interesting that the Guardian Journalist who's trawling ARRSE has taken that spin.

From what has been posted here its quite clear its a non-issue being inflamed by the media, so you;d have thought with his education and impartial PoV he/she could write some balanced copy.....oh no, they wouldn't do that would they!

Not quite sure who does the more damage at times, our politicians, journalists or the Taliban and AQ?

Don't be silly A2_Matelot, if they took a balanced, impartial, sensible view then there'd be no need for the lynch mob to form sensationalism and scandal sells remember!

Torch waving lynch mob in full fury on the Wail comments section…

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...equipment.html


At least they didn't accuse us of slaughtering the first born and eating babies

My 'bonus' this year was £390 before tax - that's £250 after tax and insurance.

Hey Journoscum want to know what I spent it on? It's been donated to various (mainly service) charities.

Most of us hate the bonus sytem that's been foisted on us (no pay agreement has been reached in several years - it's been imposed by the MOD).

I also hate that the 'news' industry moved from journalism to entertainment and regularly prints utter crap just for the sake of ratings/readership.

I know I know, I'm too naive and see things far too simply....... Its just irritating that when there are a plethora of valid Defence related issues that need to be aired and debated this gets thrown up and touted as yet another example of MOD failing.

All this will achieve is greater, unnecessary, scrutiny of how much funding we need. Post SDR all three services will be under pressure to accept Defense cuts regardless of which party is elected. They will all take the short term view and ignore strategic considerations and simply plan a round of spending cuts to appease voters affected by the global recession and the failure of our banking and commercial systems to self-manage themselves.

The net result will be smaller UK Armed Forces with far less equipment than we need and the downward spiral will be truly set.

Grief thats put me in a dire mood......

As has been said by others, this is a non-story created, not by Civil Service greed, but by the government's attempt to:
A. Save money by taking part of the CS pay and then offering it back as a non pensionable "bonus".
B. Pretend that this is now a "performance related pay" scheme that improves effectiveness.

It is convenient for well paid politicians with their noses in the expenses trough to let poorly paid Civil Servants who actually lose out by this "bonus" scheme take the flack for a while.

Please quote that last sentence Mr Journo! You can even say I am a serving Army Officer if you want to give it credibility.

I'm a civil servant or serpent to those of you who feel aggrieved. I am an E1 grade which is a supervisory grade. I am a shift worker. My basic salary having worked in the Civil Service for 9 years is £16800. When I started 9 years ago I earnt £14000 per year. Not much of a payrise. This is enhanced by a 20 percent shift allowance which puts it upto £20400. On top of that I get a flexibility allowance which puts it to roughly £21000. I have received the lottery as we call it or the bonus as you call it most years since its inception. Its worth £150 after tax and is paid in a months salary. The higher you go in the Civil Service grade wise the more the bonus award. If you are a C1 or B grade I have been told that the figure is roughly £1300. Thats more than some of my colleagues get in a month. I have been given the bonus all £150 of it and make no bones about it. In 5 years I have had the opportunity to turn it down but never have. In those 5 years it totalled £700 on top of my crap wage. Any person who would be in the same position who says they wouldn't is either lying or the Lord Jesus/someone of equally high morals. If you want to slag me off or criticise me for it crack on.

I have been where soldiers are now earning next to fcuk all whilst Civil Servants earn twice as much for doing half of what my and my colleagues did. Yes it is an unjust, immoral and an absolutely disgraceful system. But if you think thats bad then consider this: I know civilians who work in logistics who went to Iraq for 6 months and were earning upto £3000 per month tax free whilst soldiers were earning around a third of that. The civilians were behind protection working in airconditioned areas with all the accoutrements that their job brings. The sad thing is this disparity still goes on in Afghanistan. It will not change. I hope it does.

I logged on to this thread expecting to see the usual 'snivel serpent' bashing, but have been pleasantly surprised by the quality of the debate.

To the Journos hovering for a good sound bite: to call these 'bonuses' in the same breath as banker bonuses is complete and utter nonsense. This is 'performance related pay' where we have to compete with our colleagues for a small chunk of our salary.

And as has been said, this scheme was introduced by this government to 'better motivate staff' and as has been noted, HMT saves a bit because it doesn't count towards your pension.

However, in my experience, the tiny number who get the top 'bonuses' are those who have really pulled out the stops to support the front line - for example by delivering UORs into Helmand in nothing flat. No one is going to tell me that these people do not deserve some reward and recognition!

Originally Posted by The Monk

Cut CS posts.
Give the work to external contractors.
MoD PR announces it's saved X amount in pay and pensions.
MoD PR conveniently forgets to mention that it's now costing 3 times the previous amount.
But at least they can say they've made a cut in manning.

PUS, is that you???

I thought all of that was a secret...

Litotes

I would be genuinely interested to see what performance criteria the bonus payments are made against. The concern I have with any performance managemeht system, and I have seen a lot, is that the senior management generally write their own objectives and skew everything they do to the achievement of objectives so thay can tick the right boxes and qualify for a bonus. This often leads to contradictory and destructive behaviours with the output of respective department geared to silo'd objectives rather than overall effect. This then trickles down through the whole organisation and processes and outputs are eventually perverted so that theobjective becomes the achievement of target and in turn, bonus

Originally Posted by Gun_Nut

pleasantly surprised by the quality of the debate.

Concur, I started the thread then looked back and suspected I'd be shot down as some closet CS or a politik aggitator.

Nice to see some sensible comments for/against - all bar Oil_Slicks usual dribble

Originally Posted by A2_Matelot

Originally Posted by Skynet

Tell me about this cheap housing schooling and medical care? Housing is the average of all council house rents in UK. (see AFPRB report) Medical care is the same as civilians get and they pay the same NI for it. Cheap schooling really? Please explain?

That all depends on where you are in the UK, my MQ is about 1/3rd the local rent of a similar property.

Cheap schooling - how else am I going to afford a decent private school education for my sprogs?

Medical Care - free prescriptions add up; you get accelerated private care (when required) and don't pay for it and ultimately our DMS people provide a very good standard of healthcare for us - far superior to civvies.

Dentistry - had a filling lately or a crown. Chuffing expensive.

Originally Posted by mnairb

'cheap housing, cheap schooling, free medical care etc.' - A2_Matelot seems to be confusing the British Forces with the Americans. He will be telling us that the forces don't pay tax next (another commonly held belief).

You really don't recognise some of the benefits of what we receive as part of our overall package?

To bracket the benefits we receive as a 'package' doesn't really add up. The government require us to be fit and healthy otherwise you end up with a non deployable armed forces, our families require somewhere to live etc etc etc. I would be quite happy to forego the package you describe if it meant more sheckles in my pocket unfortunately I can't.

This is the response from one of the main CS unions today. I think it is interesting (if a little political), but makes some pertinent points.

12 November 2009

The Public and Commercial Services union hit back today over media reports about Ministry of Defence bonuses and accused the Conservatives of misrepresenting civilian defence staff to score political points.

Far from being faceless bureaucrats, 16,000 PCS members in the MoD provide security, training, procurement and logistics support, as well as working directly alongside the military in Afghanistan and Iraq. Starting salaries are as low as £14,500, with many low paid workers receiving a pay cut this year.

The average one-off 'bonus' payment for PCS members, which has increasingly replaced pay rises, was between £300 and £400. These payments are non-pensionable and non-consolidated and have become an increasing feature of pay systems in the civil service.

Rather than trying to create a false divide between the armed forces and civilian staff, the union called on the Conservatives and those criticising the pay arrangements to recognise that MoD staff and our armed forces are part of the same team.

PCS also highlighted the scandalous waste of billions of pounds in the MoD equipment programme and the employment of thousands of non-deployable service personnel.

The union went on to warn that support for our armed forces on the frontline was being undermined by 25,000 job cuts in the MoD and the billions wasted on failed privatisations.

Mark Serwotka, PCS general secretary, said: "If civilian staff in the MoD were receiving huge bonuses the anger expressed by families of soldiers on the frontline would be understandable, but it's not true.

"With pay cuts and starting salaries as low as £14,500, the average bonus for PCS members was between £300 and £400. They will feel let down at being misrepresented in an attempt to score political points and create a false divide between them and their colleagues in the armed forces.

"Faced with 25,000 job cuts, civilian staff in the MoD are doing a vital job in supporting the military here in the UK and in Afghanistan and Iraq.

"Recently over 1,000 MoD civilian staff had to receive an emergency payment because their pay had fallen below the national minimum wage.

"Rather than receiving a paltry non-pensionable bonus they would prefer a decent pay rise and to be valued by the politicians for the important work they do."

Originally Posted by BPS666

The government require us to be fit and healthy otherwise you end up with a non deployable armed forces, our families require somewhere to live etc etc etc. I would be quite happy to forego the package you describe if it meant more sheckles in my pocket unfortunately I can't.

The Police require my brother to be fit and healthy and he needs somewhere to live but he doesn't get any of these benefits.

The NHS require my wife to be fit and healthy and she needs somewhere to live, the NHS doesn't offer her these benefits.

You need to be fit and healthy to stack shelves in ASDA and you need somewhere to live too.

I think we get some good benefits, admittedly less than when I first joined up but thats progress. If you don't agree thats fine.