Thread: Civil Serpants £300M bonuses

I now understand that it was the Tories that started this hare running.

I am appalled that Messrs Fox and Mercer have been involved in pushing this bollocks - and it is everywhere.

It's a complete travesty of the real world. I despair.

Litotes

Did the BBC run hard with this story because they knew that the story about the pay of the BBC executives was about to hit the fan?

Litotes

Originally Posted by Twice-the-man

I don't know enough about the ins and outs of the bonuses that these civvy pen-pushers get to comment on that but last year I can remember seeing some internal magazine called 'Defence Focus' I think which is purely aimed at the gimps in the MoD offices and there was a whole article on how many OBEs/MBEs etc had been dished out to these bods for doing spells in theatre.

I've seen acts of extreme courage where the bods involved have got nothing more than a certificate from the Brigadier, so how they defend giving anything to a civil servant who sits in Lashkar Gar or Baghdad for a bit.

Then again the lads who have served in the Queen's uniform can at least look themselves in the mirror and know they toed the line; can these losers at the MoD say the same?

God, I'm a prejudiced cnut!!!

you're quite the tw@t aren't you?

Originally Posted by Skynet

Regarding education the type of boarding school affordable on the BSA is in many ways no better than many state schools.

OK, so you pick your schools with care - so what?

Originally Posted by Skynet

Certainly BSA was not overly generous and just about paid for it.

And of course, thats not a benefit of being in the Services is it? "Not overly generous either", like paying the 80% you couldn't afford?

Originally Posted by Skynet

The CS foreign Office and other government departments who require great flexibility from their workforce pay much more generous allowances and so do many big international companies either in pay or allowences.

And your point is?

Originally Posted by Skynet

Now onto free prescriptions. Forces personnel are generally very healthy and don't require much in the way of medication.

Most medication expense is on the 50 plus age group which are a very small % of the forces. Once again dental expenses are more a problem with the 50 plus group.

Our PMO pi**ed himself laughing at this, in his words "if only you saw what he does and how unhealthy and unfit our people are!"

Originally Posted by Skynet

Not a good deal really!

Maybe on your high terms and standards?

Originally Posted by Skynet

Regarding housing in the public rented centre forces housing ranks ranks the lowest in maintenance standards and of course you have little choice in choosing your location (defence select committee was scathing on the standards of service housing in comparison with other public sector housing)

Can't say I'd noticed - mine is mighty fine and I had a wide range to choose from!

Can I offer something to put the 'bonus' in perspective. I was a CS (not MOD) in a grade that read across to Major*. One happy year I achieved the very highest possible bonus for my grade. After tax, etc it worked out at 40 tabs a week.

*note I did not say 'equivalent to Major', its simply I could never get my head round the MOD's alpha-numeric system for CS grades, so I can't give the MOD equivalent. Let's not do the equivalency debate in a thread that's been so civilized.

C_C

E2 2008 2009 2010 E1 2008 2009 2010 D 2008 2009 2010 C2 2008 2009 2010 C1 2008 2009 2010 B2 2008 2009 2010 B1 2008 2009 2010
1 £12,703 1 £12,509 1 £12,593 1 £12,416 1 £12,669 1 1
2 £13,084 2 £12,885 2 £12,971 2 £12,788 2 £13,049 2 2
3 £13,477 3 £13,271 3 £13,360 3 £13,172 3 £13,440 3 3
1 £13,881 1 1 4 £13,669 4 £13,761 4 £13,567 4 £13,843 4 4
2 £14,298 5 £14,079 5 £14,174 5 £13,974 5 £14,259 5 5
3 £14,726 3 1 6 £14,502 6 £14,599 6 £14,393 6 £14,686 6 6
4 £15,168 4 1 7 £14,937 7 £15,037 7 £14,825 7 £15,127 7 7
5 £15,623 8 £15,385 8 £15,488 8 £15,270 8 £15,581 8 8
6 £16,092 1 £15,847 1 1 9 £15,953 9 £15,728 9 £16,048 9 9
7 £16,575 2 £16,322 10 £16,431 10 £16,199 10 £16,530 10 10
8 £17,072 8 1 3 £16,812 3 1 11 £16,924 11 £16,685 11 £17,025 11 £17,038 11
9 £17,584 9 9 1 4 £17,316 12 £17,432 12 £17,186 12 £17,536 12 £17,549 12
13 £18,112 5 £17,835 5 1 13 £17,955 13 £17,702 13 £18,062 13 £18,075 13
14 £18,655 6 £18,371 14 £18,494 14 £18,233 14 £18,604 14 £18,618 14
15 £19,215 7 £18,922 15 £19,048 15 £18,780 15 £19,162 15 £19,176 15
16 £19,791 8 £19,489 16 £19,620 16 £19,343 16 £19,737 16 £19,751 16
17 £20,385 9 £20,074 9 9 1 17 £20,208 17 £19,923 17 £20,329 17 £20,344 17
18 £20,996 10 £20,676 10 1 1 £20,815 1 1 18 £20,521 18 £20,939 18 £20,954 18
19 £21,626 19 £21,297 2 £21,439 19 £21,137 19 £21,567 19 £21,583 19 £21,278
20 £22,275 20 £21,935 3 £22,082 3 1 20 £21,771 20 £22,214 20 £22,230 20 £21,916
21 £22,943 21 £22,593 4 £22,745 21 £22,424 21 £22,881 21 £22,897 21 £22,574
22 £23,632 22 £23,271 5 £23,427 5 1 22 £23,097 22 £23,567 22 £23,584 22 £23,251
23 £24,341 23 £23,969 6 £24,130 23 £23,789 23 £24,274 23 £24,292 23 £23,948
24 £25,071 24 £24,688 7 £24,854 24 £24,503 24 £25,002 24 £25,020 24 £24,667
25 £25,823 25 £25,429 8 £25,600 25 £25,238 25 £25,753 25 £25,771 25 £25,407
26 £26,598 26 £26,192 9 £26,367 1 £25,995 1 1 26 £26,525 26 £26,544 26 £26,169
27 £27,396 27 £26,978 10 £27,159 10 1 2 £26,775 27 £27,321 27 £27,341 27 £26,954
28 £28,217 28 £27,787 11 £27,973 11 11 1 3 £27,578 3 1 28 £28,141 28 £28,161 28 £27,763
29 £29,064 29 £28,621 29 £28,812 4 £28,406 29 £28,985 29 £29,006 29 £28,596
30 £29,936 30 £29,479 30 £29,677 5 £29,258 5 1 30 £29,854 30 £29,876 30 £29,453
31 £30,834 31 £30,364 31 £30,567 6 £30,136 31 £30,750 31 £30,772 31 £30,337
32 £31,759 32 £31,275 32 £31,484 7 £31,040 32 £31,672 32 £31,695 32 £31,247
33 £32,712 33 £32,213 33 £32,429 8 £31,971 1 £32,623 1 1 33 £32,646 33 £32,185
34 £33,693 34 £33,179 34 £33,402 9 £32,930 2 £33,601 2 1 34 £33,625 34 £33,150
35 £34,704 35 £34,175 35 £34,404 10 £33,918 10 10 1 3 £34,609 35 £34,634 35 £34,145
36 £35,745 36 £35,200 36 £35,436 11 £34,936 11 1 4 £35,648 4 1 36 £35,673 36 £35,169
37 £36,817 37 £36,256 37 £36,499 37 £35,984 5 £36,717 37 £36,743 37 £36,224
38 £37,922 38 £37,344 38 £37,594 38 £37,063 6 £37,819 38 £37,846 38 £37,311
39 £39,060 39 £38,464 39 £38,722 39 £38,175 7 £38,953 39 £38,981 39 £38,430
40 £40,231 40 £39,618 40 £39,883 40 £39,320 8 £40,122 40 £40,151 40 £39,583
41 £41,438 41 £40,806 41 £41,080 41 £40,500 9 £41,325 9 1 41 £41,355 41 £40,770
42 £42,681 42 £42,030 42 £42,312 42 £41,715 10 £42,565 10 10 1 42 £42,596 42 £41,994
43 £43,962 43 £42,030 43 £43,581 43 £42,966 43 £43,842 1 £43,874 1 1 43 £43,253
44 £45,281 44 £42,030 44 £44,889 44 £44,255 44 £45,157 2 £45,190 2 1 44 £44,551
45 £46,639 45 £42,030 45 £46,236 45 £45,583 45 £46,512 3 £46,545 45 £45,887
46 £48,038 46 £42,030 46 £47,623 46 £46,951 46 £47,907 4 £47,942 4 1 46 £47,264
47 £49,479 47 £42,030 47 £49,051 47 £48,359 47 £49,345 5 £49,380 47 £48,682
48 £50,964 48 £42,030 48 £50,523 48 £49,810 48 £50,825 6 £50,862 48 £50,143
49 £52,493 49 £42,030 49 £52,039 49 £51,304 49 £52,350 7 £52,387 49 £51,647
50 £54,067 50 £42,030 50 £53,600 50 £52,843 50 £53,920 8 £53,959 1 £53,196 1
51 £55,690 51 £42,030 51 £55,208 51 £54,429 51 £55,538 9 £55,578 9 9 1 2 £54,792 2
52 £57,360 52 £42,030 52 £56,864 52 £56,061 52 £57,204 10 £57,245 10 1 3 £56,436 3
53 £59,081 53 £42,030 53 53 £57,743 53 £58,920 53 £58,962 4 £58,129
54 £60,853 54 £42,030 54 54 £59,476 54 £60,688 54 £60,731 5 £59,873
55 £62,679 55 £42,030 55 55 £61,260 55 £62,508 55 £62,553 6 £61,669
56 £64,559 56 £42,030 56 56 £63,098 56 £64,383 56 £64,430 7 £63,519
57 £66,496 57 £42,030 57 57 £64,991 57 £66,315 57 £66,363 8 £65,425
58 £68,491 58 £42,030 58 58 £66,940 58 £68,304 58 £68,354 9 £67,387
59 £70,546 59 £42,030 59 59 £68,948 59 £70,354 59 £70,404 10 £69,409 10 10 10
60 £72,662 60 £42,030 60 60 60 £72,464 60 £72,516 60 £71,491



Pay Bands

Yes I no its cut and past but worth a read,

Legal update - important action for PCS members at E1 and E2
Our union is continuing to progress a major legal challenge to the imposed pay cuts for our members. All members impacted have already been asked to complete a complaint letter; we now need to take the next step and all members are asked to complete a individual grievance and lodge this with the department.

Attached below at Annex 1 is a grievance template letter. All PCS members in pay band’s E1 and E2 are urged to complete this letter. Based on our legal advice, we are also lodging 10 employment tribunal cases, to protect the legal position of every PCS member in both pay bands.

At Annex 2 below is the MoD pay scales and spine points from 2006-2009. All staff that are in receipt of the pay protection allowance are asked to use this to complete their grievance letter. Please use this information to work out your spine point and also the amount of money you have lost in consolidated pay.

For example if you were previously on spine point 31 (the spine point max before 1 May 2009) you will now be on spine point 9. Your consolidated and pensionable pay loss would have decreased from £23,534 to £20,074 meaning that you will have suffered a loss of £3,460 per annum.

We will of course be highlighting the potential future loss for staff who previously had expectations to progress up the pay scale only to find the maxima come crashing down below them. For now however your immediate loss should be calculated as the amount of pay protection that you are receiving.

If you have queries on this please contact your local branch or group secretary, Paul Barnsley at paulba@pcs.org.uk for assistance.

As before PCS members are asked to send a copy of the completed letter to the Director General for Civilian Personnel, Susan Scholefield and also send a copy of the competed grievance letter to PCS at paulba@pcs.org.uk

Update on negotiations
There have been no further responses or efforts by the department to resolve our dispute. We have not received a response from Susan Scholefield to our invitation to meet PCS members directly to discuss their concerns on pay. It is worth reminding all members of the issues that we are still in dispute with our employer on:

1.The attack on the pay of the lowest paid staff with huge cuts to pay at the E1 and E2 pay band maxima. Our union wants MoD to work with us to agree fair pay band maxima for these pay bands.
2.A disgraceful attempt by MoD to cut the future pensions of all staff, particularly at pay bands E1 and E2. Our union is demanding a guarantee of no detriment to our members pensions.
3.A series of cuts to the pay and allowances of civil servants serving overseas. Our union is seeking an agreement that treats PCS members working abroad fairly and which rewards their commitment.
4.MoD scale shortening has pushed many members back down to their pay band minima – this after member’s have spent years moving away from it. Our union wants an agreement on scale shortening that rewards long service and loyalty and where our members can get to rate for the job- the band maxima quickly.
5.Freezing pay band maxima at senior pay bands. Our union wants a fair pay for all staff in all grades.
6.The offer is divisive and does not meet the terms of the PCS national and group pay claim. Our members have suffered years of low pay and below inflation awards. Many members continue to struggle to make ends meet and the MoD pay system needs urgent reform

Originally Posted by A2_Matelot

Widely reported in the media (to early to muck about with links) that this year alone our MOD Civil Servants (CS) received £47M in bonuses

500 quid each? Blimey. That being non-consolidated performance pay (as mandated for all government departments by pensioner-robber Broon), not "bonuses".

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Viking

There is a bonus system purely because they cannot afford to pay pensions; by not being part of salary it does not accrue towards pensionable pay. It is totally iniquitous (spelling?) and rather than actually rewarding proper endeavour it rewards those at the higher end of the pay scale with greater sums of money. They would be better off doing away with it all together and just giving every civil servant three or four days extra leave that must be taken at Christmas (because they switch all the heating off anyway and no green suits are in work except duty personnel!).

The hilarious thing is that Cyclops who brought the system in (whilst Chancellor) is pretending not to remember it. What a clown!

The best time to start WWIII was always Christmas (especially as the Russians celebrate it a week or two later than us) whilst MB is on holiday.

Civil Serpents

The fact of the matter is,is that there are to many of you, full stop.And i will give you an example, in my old place we had 5 civil servants,one was a store man /driver, who could neither lift or drive, and spent 6 months out of 12 on the sick(Bonus paid).We also had 2 AOs, who you would be hard pressed to find in the office, if at all, before 11 in the morning, and after 3 in the afternoon (Bonus paid).The other was permanently on the sick with various G1 type issues, but i would guess he probably got the bonus too.The end result, 2 of us picked up the workload which wasn't massive anyway got on with it and still went home at a sensible time. And yep neither of us got a bonus.

Originally Posted by Morris_Viper

Civil Serpents

The fact of the matter is,is that there are to many of you, full stop.And i will give you an example, in my old place we had 5 civil servants,one was a store man /driver, who could neither lift or drive, and spent 6 months out of 12 on the sick(Bonus paid).We also had 2 AOs, who you would be hard pressed to find in the office, if at all, before 11 in the morning, and after 3 in the afternoon (Bonus paid).The other was permanently on the sick with various G1 type issues, but i would guess he probably got the bonus too.The end result, 2 of us picked up the workload which wasn't massive anyway got on with it and still went home at a sensible time. And yep neither of us got a bonus.

So why didn't their line manager - who I assume was Military - do something about it? They can only get away with it if someone let's them get away with it..

Originally Posted by Mongoose

Originally Posted by Morris_Viper

Civil Serpents

The fact of the matter is,is that there are to many of you, full stop.And i will give you an example, in my old place we had 5 civil servants,one was a store man /driver, who could neither lift or drive, and spent 6 months out of 12 on the sick(Bonus paid).We also had 2 AOs, who you would be hard pressed to find in the office, if at all, before 11 in the morning, and after 3 in the afternoon (Bonus paid).The other was permanently on the sick with various G1 type issues, but i would guess he probably got the bonus too.The end result, 2 of us picked up the workload which wasn't massive anyway got on with it and still went home at a sensible time. And yep neither of us got a bonus.

So why didn't their line manager - who I assume was Military - do something about it? They can only get away with it if someone let's them get away with it..

Long term sick leave = no bonus
Restoring efficiency = no bonus

Were the AO's part time by any chance?

Originally Posted by twitter

Originally Posted by Baldrick66

Originally Posted by twitter

I do care ,Our troops safety as to come first before civil servants can claim expenses /bonus .

You obviously don't read to well.

Expenses are paid to cover out of pocket expense no matter if you are Military or Civilian and are paid at the same rate these days. Do you really expect someone to pay for there own fuel when driving somewhere on their employers business?.

No i don't expect someone to pay for their own fuel when driving somewhere on their employers business yes you should be able to claim for expenses .
But i do object to people being paid large bonus which are also being paid out on top of expenses when it as already been stated that the money could be spent on our soldiers safety

Chubb, you are living proof inbreeding produces fuckwits.

If you were a dog, you'd be a crufts show winner due to being more inbred than a lab.

While we can all find examples of lazy CS, the majority work hard for (relatively) little pay or recognition.
Most of the real issues in MOD are in the organisation at a higher level, not the individuals at the low level.

And I can find a lazy storeman in uniform at most military establishments so lets not have the pot calling the kettle black here!

Lets face it Liam Fox and Mercer really are out of touch. Something I wrote elsewhere - but I feel strongly about this - we are attacking the very people, who in many cases support us. We are too few to complete these tasks and need CS help.

The issue of bonuses and the MOD has not been entirely thought. It is far too simplistic and hides the fact that many military posts have been civilianised over the past 25 years. So, firstly, I am not entirely sure how the Conservative Party are going to reduce the amount of posts, many of which provide direct support to servicemen and women when they are back in the UK and Germany. These civil servants are part of the military team and the majority of them are low paid and many are ex sevicemen and women. To decry their contribution and attack them over a bonus scheme imposed on them by Gordon Brown, when he was at the Treasury I find crass and unhelpful. Secondly, as the bonus scheme was part of a pay rise over 5 years ago - it is disengenuos to say that the money could be released easily to assist the front line. As a recently retired Lieutenant Colonel I was angered by the over simplification of the argument. I really do think defence correspondent's could have produced articles that covered the facts and not hyperbole. Most civil servants employed by the MOD provide security, adminstration, intelligence skills, scientific advisors and hands on experts who help counter the IEDD threat, medical centre staff and a whole host of other talents releasing troops for the front line. Critise the MoD for "rubbish procurement" by all means - one of the reasons I left the army early was my lack of faith in procurement decisions made by senior officers and civil servants and haven't "sold my soul" to work for a defence contractor - but don't attack part of the military team - the civil servants - the very people I lived and worked with throughout my career. Mr Patrick Mercer's comments were also not helpful and show how out of touch he has become. Many civil servants in the MOD are low paid and hard working and loyal. They should expect better. Attack the Labour Parties destruction of a coherent military strategy by other means please.