Originally Posted by BuggerAll

Originally Posted by Iolis

One can see therefore, that Blair, if elected which appears unlikely, has little or now power within the borders of the Union.

There won't be any elections in Festung Europa. El Presedente, Blair or otherwise will be anointed by the likes of Sarko, Berlisconi and the oaf Brown.

Anymore of this 'elections' talk and you'll be up against the wall comrade citizen.

No, the President of the European Council is elected by a qualified majority vote under Article 15(5) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) as it will be called once the Czech's have ratified.

I am a Crown subject, not a citizen. The British Nationality Act 1948 enacted by a more discrete generation of post-war politicians simply changed the title of the subject and not his status. Citizens have rights enforceable against their government. Subjects are posessed of 'civil liberties' which may be granted or withdrawn at will by their government. That Britain chooses to opt out of the charter of fundamental rights should tell you enough about the peculiarly British ruling elite's habit of presenting form as substance.

Originally Posted by Monty417

Originally Posted by Pete_the_writer

Originally Posted by Monty417

The question now is, if the Tories win the next election, should they give the electorate a referendum on whether to fully opt out of this new EU.

They should. However, "Call Me Dave" doesn't have the guts in my
opinion.

He should indeed, after promising one if it wasn't ratified if and when the Tories take over. I see no reason why the people shouldn't have a say on the way their lives are to be affected. Pressure must be brought to bear on getting Cameron to promise this.

Why?

There is already a party you can vote for that will give you what you want: UKIP.

Are you a New Labour member desperate to see the Tories go through another internal war to the point of slef-destruction?

Originally Posted by FARMBOY

What is the great fear about not being in the EU? Loss of freedom of movement? Loss of trade?

If Britain were to decide that we do not want to be in the EU then Europe will still trade with us, just as we trade with those outside the EU now.

If the Tories do not give the British people the chance to decide on Europe then as other posters have said the democracy that has has evolved over 1000 years in Great Britain will by definition have ended. The people will no longer decide who governs them, that I find very frightening.

A referendem in the UK is a necessity now.

Norway has rejected membership twice, freely trades throughout the EU and is one of the worlds richest nations.
Switzerland has frozen joining, freely trades throughout the EU and is one of the words richest nations.

Why does the UK feel the need to be among the leaders of this bunch of disunited countries, many of which are mainly parasites offering sweet FA in return and I would include France and it's farmers in that. At the end of the day, the EU would have no real world credibility without the UK and I would say that we are more important to it than it is to us. Even after the major fcuking over that Nu Lab has given our country, it still has more world cred than the rest. Smug bastards, patting themselves on the back, fcuk 'em, let them get on with it without us, restore the Commonwealth, which was the envy of the world. Bring it on.

This is TREASON !!!

How many have died to save our independence, and these clowns sign it all away. Hanging is too good for 'em.

UKIP - a complete and utter joke who like all political parties exploit ignorance, creates social division and represents no-one.

There is only one party in this country. It is called the LibLabCon party and it rules supreme within the Kingdom representing no-one's interest!

Originally Posted by Iolis

UKIP - a complete and utter joke who like all political parties exploit ignorance, creates social division and represents no-one.

There is only one party in this country. It is called the LibLabCon party and it rules supreme within the Kingdom representing no-one's interest!

They represent their own interests!

Originally Posted by fuggyred

This is TREASON !!!

How many have died to save our independence, and these clowns sign it all away. Hanging is too good for 'em.

I refer the honourable ARRSE member to my earlier post with ref to revolution.

Originally Posted by whitecity

Originally Posted by Monty417

Originally Posted by Pete_the_writer

Originally Posted by Monty417

The question now is, if the Tories win the next election, should they give the electorate a referendum on whether to fully opt out of this new EU.

They should. However, "Call Me Dave" doesn't have the guts in my
opinion.

He should indeed, after promising one if it wasn't ratified if and when the Tories take over. I see no reason why the people shouldn't have a say on the way their lives are to be affected. Pressure must be brought to bear on getting Cameron to promise this.

Why?

There is already a party you can vote for that will give you what you want: UKIP.

Are you a New Labour member desperate to see the Tories go through another internal war to the point of slef-destruction?

1: I'm not interested in voting for a mutual admiration society.

2: Are you saying that Cameron knew that the Lisbon Treaty would be ratified so that he would have no need to keep his promise of a referendum? Surely a referendum on completely in or out would not be any more self destructing, unless you think that a minority with Ken Clarkes' views would be capable of doing that. Personally, I think that if he made that commitment now, it would help to restore the public faith that Nu Lab betrayed and destroyed by reneging on their promise of a referendum, and would strengthen the Tory Party even more.

Well, I guess Balkenende can continue his evil works in the rest of the EU then... He's allready messed up the Netherlands!

Originally Posted by Monty417

Originally Posted by whitecity

Originally Posted by Monty417

Originally Posted by Pete_the_writer

Originally Posted by Monty417

The question now is, if the Tories win the next election, should they give the electorate a referendum on whether to fully opt out of this new EU.

They should. However, "Call Me Dave" doesn't have the guts in my
opinion.

He should indeed, after promising one if it wasn't ratified if and when the Tories take over. I see no reason why the people shouldn't have a say on the way their lives are to be affected. Pressure must be brought to bear on getting Cameron to promise this.

Why?

There is already a party you can vote for that will give you what you want: UKIP.

Are you a New Labour member desperate to see the Tories go through another internal war to the point of slef-destruction?

1: I'm not interested in voting for a mutual admiration society.

2: Are you saying that Cameron knew that the Lisbon Treaty would be ratified so that he would have no need to keep his promise of a referendum? Surely a referendum on completely in or out would not be any more self destructing, unless you think that a minority with Ken Clarkes' views would be capable of doing that. Personally, I think that if he made that commitment now, it would help to restore the public faith that Nu Lab betrayed and destroyed by reneging on their promise of a referendum, and would strengthen the Tory Party even more.

Well Cameron could not have known for sure - but it was the most likely outcome. I think he is happy this can be pushed to the edge of the table, if not off it completely.
There should be an in/out referendum - but now is not the time. It should be done from a position of strength (or at least independence). The last thing the UK economy needs now is more uncertainty - it would push it beyond even the IMF's lifeline.
People who vote for daft parties like UKIP/BNP will be playing into the hands of Labour in the majority of cases, but not enough to stop the Tories getting elected.