Please Help - Bipolar british citizen faces imminent execution in China

**Monty417** · 31-12-2009, 20:13

I think his defence wanted him to be assessed (Reprieve even payed for an appropriately qualified psychologist to fly out and assess him - the Chinese agreed to this, but then changed their minds), but the Chinese repeatedly opposed the idea.

He'd also been living rough in Poland for several years, so I imagine that's why there was a lack of proof (although I do consider a psychiatrist's interpretation of behavioural reports proof, and these are often a feature when forming a diagnosis), because he was off the radar as it were - one of the difficulties in the UK is assessing our own homeless for mental health issues, let alone British individuals who are slumming it in other countries. But from what I've read (statements on the Reprieve website from people who knew him), it certainly sounds like he was not the full ticket.

__________________________________________________ ___________

His family said that he was Bi Polar, so, as they hadn't really kept in touch with him, there must have been medical records dating back some time, for them to be able to say this. The fact that they were unable to produce such records suggests that he had never been diagnosed with Bi Polar, or any other mental health problem.

Under those circumstances, I imagine that the Chinese thought that the Org Reprieve would pay a tame shrink to give evidence on his behalf.

He wanted Jihad, now he's found out about the waiting virgins.

**amazing__lobster** · 31-12-2009, 20:14

Originally Posted by Monty417

He wanted Jihad, now he's found out about the waiting virgins.

Then I'm sure he'll be very disappointed. He probably had more chance of meeting them when he was singing about bunnies :D

**Monty417** · 31-12-2009, 20:17

Originally Posted by amazing__lobster

Originally Posted by Monty417

He wanted Jihad, now he's found out about the waiting virgins.

Then I'm sure he'll be very disappointed. He probably had more chance of meeting them when he was singing about bunnies :D

**smartascarrots** · 31-12-2009, 20:25

Originally Posted by amazing__lobster

But if you are saying the media have it wrong, and that China did not ignore its own laws in relation to how the mentally ill are treated, then you are right - why should they adopt their laws to suit other nations.

The media seem to be assuming that because Article 18 of the Criminal Code offers the possibility that mental instability may absolve the accused from criminal responsibility, that this would be exercised.

They conveniently overlook the stipulations of:

Article 3, that "Any act deemed by explicit stipulations of law as a crime is to be convicted and given punishment by law";

Article 5, that "The severity of punishments must be commensurate with the crime committed by an offender"; and

Article 61, "When deciding the punishment of a criminal element, the sentence shall be imposed on the basis of the facts of the crime, the nature and circumstances of the crime, and the degree of harm to society, in accordance with the relevant stipulations of this law."

He was trafficking drugs. China had extremely unhappy experiences with wide-spread drug abuse and what that did to their society. Their perception of the "degree of harm" he committed is informed by their own recent history and it's pretty vile.

**vampangua** · 31-12-2009, 20:39

Article 18 - which covers mental competency - provides that people with mental disorders but who retain the ability to tell right from wrong may be given a lesser sentence. May - not must - there is scope for clemency, but no right to it. And as pointed out above, there are other articles covering sentencing, based on impact of offence.

**FrankCastle** · 31-12-2009, 20:50

Originally Posted by amazing__lobster

Originally Posted by smartascarrots

Originally Posted by vampangua

What they seem to have overlooked is that definitions of psych conditions are culturally variable (ask any medic who has worked with Gurkhas how challenging this can be). So what they may genuinely believe is a relevant condition may be nowhere near the Chinese threshold.

They also seem to have overlooked the fact that it's not up to the Chinese government to prove he doesn't have a mental illness and was therefore competent to be tried. The assumption in Chinese as well as Western legal systems is that the individual is sane and competent unless proven otherwise.

Neither the man himself nor the organisations behind him were able to produce any such proof. If it existed it'd have been handed over, surely?

I think his defence wanted him to be assessed (Reprieve even payed for an appropriately qualified psychologist to fly out and assess him - the Chinese agreed to this, but then changed their minds), but the Chinese repeatedly opposed the idea.

He'd also been living rough in Poland for several years, so I imagine that's why there was a lack of proof (although I do consider a psychiatrist's interpretation of behavioural reports proof, and these are often a feature when forming a diagnosis), because he was off the radar as it were - one of the difficulties in the UK is assessing our own homeless for mental health issues, let alone British individuals who are slumming it in other countries. But from what I've read (statements on the Reprieve website from people who knew him), it certainly sounds like he was not the full ticket.

In my view, what stinks about all of this, is it's not that they executed a drug smuggler, as nobody would disagree with that. It's that they did not allow him to be assessed by a mental health professional. If what they actually did was execute somebody who lacked any kind of self-control because they experienced life like it was a Roger Rabbit cartoon, then I think it is barbaric. It would be like sentencing the two suicide bombers who reportedly had Down's Syndrome to execution, if their bombs had not gone off (I say this only if he were as ill as people argued).

If the Chinese were so convinced that he didn't have mental health problems, why wouldn't they assess him? From the British side, we had qualified professionals arguing that it seemed likely that like he had mental health problems. The Chinese response was that the officials of the courts were of the opinion that he was sane, and did not need to be assessed.

Why were no statements issued by any health professionals from their side? Surely if would have made diplomatic sense to have him assessed, considering several Western nations had condemned the whole situation.

Although I do wonder if perhaps he was assessed, but no clinician had the conscience to certify him as sane.

Why? I've never bought into the view that just because someone is a retard or loony they should be given a get out of jail free card. Do the crime, do the time. Sorry, but I don't care how fcuked up you are; if you're capable of committing the crime, you are capable of accepting the FULL punishment.

Anyway, I somehow doubt we lost the cure for cancer with this bloke...

**sunami** · 31-12-2009, 21:03

Bi-Polar disorder is a condition that affects mood, not cognition.

There is much discussion in legal circles over whether it can be accurately used as a defence at all, since those with this condition suffer mood swings - from extreme euphoria to deep depression - but this does not affect their ability to know right from wrong.

**amazing__lobster** · 01-01-2010, 06:39

Originally Posted by sunami

Bi-Polar disorder is a condition that affects mood, not cognition.

There is much discussion in legal circles over whether it can be accurately used as a defence at all, since those with this condition suffer mood swings - from extreme euphoria to deep depression - but this does not affect their ability to know right from wrong.

Sunami,

Interesting point, and you are correct in that bipolar disorder is a mood disorder. However, it is wrong to assume that mood disorders only effect ones mood. On a basic level, even mood disorders such as depression effect an individuals cognition - for example such individuals tend to suffer from a higher level of maladaptive/negative attributions compared to healthy individuals. And if IIRC, one of the diagnostic criteria for bipolar disorder (according to the DSM) includes hallucinations - which is cognition.

I'm very happy to accept that others have said that China have acted within their own laws (I wasn't surprised that the media have misinterpreted this & found the follow up posts very interesting), but I will not accept that one can dichotomise an individuals mood and an individuals cognition... And I am saying this as an individual who researches such disorders.

However, if you could kindly provide a link to the debate which sugggests cognition & mood are seperate, I would be very grateful

(edit: I don't doubt there is such a debate, but I believe this maybe an example of experts in one field thinking their expertise also makes them experts in another field & I'd be interested in seeing the basis of some of these arguments)

Oh, and happy new year

**zazabell_012** · 01-01-2010, 07:44

This thread is getting as big as Ben Hur!

Simple fact the man is dead. He had a supposed mental illness, I am not aware that this was ever an 'official' diagnosis, or as in most cases some hashed up excuse for bad behaviour. If the family had been truly concerned as to his welfare, not to mention his state of mind, they would have done the right thing by him and society and requested him sectioned in a secure facility. As is the case with most 'concerned relatives' they stuck their heads in the sand. Consequently, he ended up in China. via Poland of all places, supposedly to record a pop song for world peace.! Perhaps, in his delusional state he thought himself to be a 6ft leggy blonde in a Miss World comp

Simply put, there are many countries in this world in which the mandatory sentence for drugs (traffiking/taking/or selling) is death. Usually they have it plastered in 5 different languages on posters, so ignorance is no excuse. I only wish my own government would take such a hard line!

**263A** · 01-01-2010, 12:45

I second your LAST line

**tom_dkg** · 01-01-2010, 13:59

Originally Posted by amazing__lobster

Originally Posted by sunami

Bi-Polar disorder is a condition that affects mood, not cognition.

There is much discussion in legal circles over whether it can be accurately used as a defence at all, since those with this condition suffer mood swings - from extreme euphoria to deep depression - but this does not affect their ability to know right from wrong.

Sunami,

Interesting point, and you are correct in that bipolar disorder is a mood disorder. However, it is wrong to assume that mood disorders only effect ones mood. On a basic level, even mood disorders such as depression effect an individuals cognition - for example such individuals tend to suffer from a higher level of maladaptive/negative attributions compared to healthy individuals. And if IIRC, one of the diagnostic criteria for bipolar disorder (according to the DSM) includes hallucinations - which is cognition.

I'm very happy to accept that others have said that China have acted within their own laws (I wasn't surprised that the media have misinterpreted this & found the follow up posts very interesting), but I will not accept that one can dichotomise an individuals mood and an individuals cognition... And I am saying this as an individual who researches such disorders.

However, if you could kindly provide a link to the debate which sugggests cognition & mood are seperate, I would be very grateful

Oh, and happy new year

I could understand the Chinese not wanting to get into the whole discussion, expecially if their system allows MH only as a consideration in sentence.

I think cognition and mood cannot be separated, and this guy would seem, from the information only after his death revealed, to also have influences of religiosity which might have influenced his behaviour or at least his judgement.

The criminal system in all countries finds it hard to separate the mad, the bad and the sad, and this to me looks rather like a man who started mad, maybe by pursuing something towards his religious objectives became bad, and ended up, briefly, sad.

**rowdy** · 01-01-2010, 15:38

brilliant news, its made my christmas !

**Fallschirmjager** · 01-01-2010, 16:07

Originally Posted by tom_dkg

and this to me looks rather like a man who started mad, maybe by pursuing something towards his religious objectives became bad, and ended up, briefly, sad.

And made most of ARRSE glad.

**Monty417** · 01-01-2010, 16:13

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Originally Posted by tom_dkg

and this to me looks rather like a man who started mad, maybe by pursuing something towards his religious objectives became bad, and ended up, briefly, sad.

And made most of ARRSE glad.

Begad. :D