Originally Posted by tattybadger

Originally Posted by CaptainWillard

Originally Posted by tattybadger

Col Richard Kemp has penned a sound letter to the Times today about a British equivalent of the Purple Heart:

British PH

And I fully agree with him.

Richard Kemp (if it is ex CO of one of the Fus Bns) was a superb CO and a great bloke; he talks sense.

If it's the same Richard Kemp who's been in the media recently, I had the pleasure of his company on Op Granby. He was a Royal Anglian then though...?

I do beg yours and his pardon. He was CO of a R Anglian Bn in Londonderry and I was down the rd from him. A great bloke IMO.

I'm sure this has come up before in a previous 'arrse' thread.

He's a punchy fcuker, who cuts about in a pinstripe suit around Docklands. Get a grip of him TB before he becomes a topic on the 'Dapper Clothing' of why shortarrses shouldn't be seen in pinstripes :D

Medal? What medal?...... oh yes, back on topic.......... I agree with him.

Originally Posted by woodandy3

but like others have said it would cost a fortune and i cant see the goverment forking out for any kind of medal

and how far could you backdate it? that would be more money!!

Valid point.

I'm sure that with the Elizabeth Cross, MOD would have wanted a more recent cut-off than 1948, after all a the cross would be more meaningful to a widow of a soldier who died recently than say, a great nephew, who has newer seen the soldier, maybe fallen in a 'fifties or 'sixties conflict. (Be interesting to see how long it takes for an EC to appear on Ebay)

But whatever the early cut-off point, there would have been complaints and lobbying to all and sundry from old soldiers groups that their era was
being missed out. Hence the date of 1948 which was easier to justify.

Colonel Kemp has got his own entry in Wikipedia. Clearly it was written by someone very fond of him- I imagine the good colonel wrote it himself.

Colonel Richard Kemp

Originally Posted by Goldbricker

Originally Posted by CC_TA

Engraved on the back 'Presented for crap cam and concealment!'

So you think the only way Your Soldiers can be wounded/killed is due to their own fault and negligence?

WTF?

No - it's called a joke, there is still some humour around here.

At the back end of 2007 I was invited to a do at the Royal Hospital Chelsea. It was a re-union for the Armed Forces Parlimentary Scheme. Whilst there aside from meeting the CGS, CDS and every other man and his dog I spoke to several MPs who mentioned such a medal, all of them were well up for the idea and they all said the same was true for the Prime Minister.

I told them that in my opinion many wounded might find it insulting that the government feels that a cheap bit of tin would make up for loosing an arm or leg etc. And, that many people don't need a medal to remind them that they'd been injured.

Personally I think that a medal for getting injured is just something else to clean.

Originally Posted by Oil_Slick

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Originally Posted by Magdovus

I don't know. For example- those who have returned physically unscathed yet carry the scars of PTSD for the rest of their lives- would they qualify?

Will I qualify with the piles I suffered with out there?

Well, I've heard that the Cousins can qualify for a medal if they're treated for a boil on their arses in the field so you may be on to a winner. :D

While I appreciate that this is a British-based forum, having been privileged to lead American Marines in battle, some of whom were killed or wounded, I cannot let your remark go without comment. I realize you may well have been trying to be humorous but in this case it goes too far in my humble opinion. While I will not try to argue that, just as in any military (yes, even in that of Great Britain) there may be abuses of awards in our military, your broadside insults those who I have personally witnessed to have suffered grievous wounds for which they received the Purple Heart and who do not deserve such slander, even if in jest.

As for some of the other comments to the effect that our Purple Heart is overblown in the sense of formal presentation ceremonies and the like, my own experience of 34 years' service, including numerous combat assignments, suggests otherwise.

Typically, this recognition of wounds received in combat is presented at the bedside of those who are recovering from their wounds in a simple, yet heartfelt "ceremony" or are presented to the grieving family at graveside where the wounds are fatal. While there are certainly other occasions when they are presented, I cannot think of a single one that was inappropriately conducted. Indeed, from my personal experience in receiving several such "awards" and from knowing other recipients, I would contend that the typical feeling of the recipient and the atmosphere of the ceremony is usually a sense of loss or even guilt at having survived when other Marines did not.

Whether the UK adopts a similar practice is up to the UK and obviously involves different traditions and perspectives than those of the US. I do not see, however, how a debate of the relative merits of this requires you to cast undeserved generalized aspersions on Americans who are wounded in the service of their country. I believe those of you who have been in combat will understand why I cannot let such statements go unchallenged.

Just to make it clear, here is the regulation for the Purple Heart:

The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of the President of the United States to any member of an Armed Force or any civilian national of the United States who, while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services after 5 April 1917, has been wounded or killed, or who has died or may hereafter die after being wounded-

(1) In any action against an enemy of the United States.

(2) In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged.

(3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

(4) As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces.

(5) As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force

(6) After 28 March 1973, as a result of an international terrorist attack against the United States or a foreign nation friendly to the United States, recognized as such an attack by the Secretary of the Army, or jointly by the Secretaries of the separate armed services concerned if persons from more than one service are wounded in the attack.

(7) After 28 March 1973, as a result of military operations while serving outside the territory of the United States as part of a peacekeeping force.

b. While clearly an individual decoration, the Purple Heart differs from all other decorations in that an individual is not "recommended" for the decoration; rather he or she is entitled to it upon meeting specific criteria.

(1) A Purple Heart is authorized for the first wound suffered under conditions indicated above, but for each subsequent award an Oak Leaf Cluster will be awarded to be worn on the medal or ribbon. Not more than one award will be made for more than one wound or injury received at the same instant or from the same missile, force, explosion, or agent.

(2) A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above. A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.

(3) When contemplating an award of this decoration, the key issue that commanders must take into consideration is the degree to which the enemy caused the injury. The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award.

(4) Examples of enemy-related injuries which clearly justify award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

(a) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action.

(b) Injury caused by enemy placed mine or trap.

(c) Injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological, or nuclear agent.

(d) Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.

(e) Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.

(5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

(a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.

(b) Heat stroke.

(c) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.

(d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.

(e) Battle fatigue.

(f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.

(g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action.

(h) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence.

(i) Post traumatic stressdisorders.

(j) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action.

(6) It is not intended that such a strict interpretation of the requirement for the wound or injury to be caused by direct result of hostile action be taken that it would preclude the award being made to deserving personnel. Commanders must also take into consideration the circumstances surrounding an injury, even if it appears to meet the criteria. Note the following examples:

(a) In a case such as an individual injured while making a parachute landing from an aircraft that had been brought down by enemy fire; or, an individual injured as a result of a vehicle accident caused by enemy fire, the decision will be made in favor of the individual and the award will be made.

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.

(c) Individuals injured as a result of their own negligence; for example, driving or walking through an unauthorized area known to have been mined or placed off limits or searching for or picking up unexploded munitions as war souvenirs, will not be awarded the Purple Heart as they clearly were not injured as a result of enemy action, but rather by their own negligence.

c. A Purple Heart will be issued to the next of kin of each person entitled to a posthumous award. Issue will be made automatically by the Commanding General, PERSCOM, upon receiving a report of death indicating entitlement.

d. Upon written application to Commander, ARPERCEN, ATTN: DARP-VSE-A, 9700 Page Boulevard. St. Louis, MO 63132-5200, award may be made to any member of the Army, who during World War I, was awarded a Meritorious Service Citation Certificate signed by the Commander in Chief, American Expeditionary Forces, or who was authorized to wear wound chevrons. Posthumous awards to personnel who were killed or died of wounds after 5 April 1917 will be made to the appropriate next of kin upon application to the Commanding General, PERSCOM.

e. Any member of the Army who was awarded the Purple Heart for meritorious achievement or service, as opposed to wounds received in action, between 7 December 1941 and 22 September 1943, may apply for award of an appropriate decoration instead of the Purple Heart.

f. For those who became Prisoners of War after 25 April 1962, the Purple Heart will be awarded to individuals wounded while prisoners of foreign forces, upon submission by the individual to the Department of the U.S. Army of an affidavit that is supported by a statement from a witness, if this is possible. Documentation and inquiries should be directed to Commander, PERSCOM, ATTN: TAPC-PDA, Alexandria, VA 22332-0471.

g. Any member of the U.S. Army who believes that he or she is eligible for the Purple Heart, but through unusual circumstances no award was made, may submit an application through military channels, to Commander, PERSCOM, ATTN: TAPC PDA, Alexandria, VA 22332-0471. Application will include complete documentation, to include evidence of medical treatment, pertaining to the wound.

h. As noted in a above, the Purple Heart may be awarded to civilian nationals of the United States. These individuals must be serving under competent authority with the Army when wounded. Serving under competent authority with the Army will include those eligible persons who are employees of the U.S. Government in a duty (pay or official travel) status when wounds are sustained. Examples of eligible individuals are as follows:

(1) Any Army employee who is traveling outside of the continental limits of the United States on PCS or temporary duty (TDY) aboard a commercial aircraft and wounded by international terrorists in an attempted or actual hijacking incident.

(2) An Army employee in an Army office building performing his or her job who is wounded by an explosive device detonated by international terrorists.

(3) A civil or foreign service employee from a U.S. Government Agency or Department attached to an Army element performing intelligence, counter-terrorist, or other duties with the Army wounded by international terrorists.

(4) An Army employee wounded in an international terrorist incident in which a soldier or soldiers are also wounded.

How would awarding this medal be determined?

Even hospitalisation will throw up some bizarre results.

More years ago than I care to remember I was blown up on a mine in Aden and was admitted to hospital; not for the gash on the forehead which the RMO stitched up whilst we shared a beer, but for a perforated eardrum which required me to be in air-conditioned accommodation to allow the antibiotics to work.

Would I have wanted a Purple Heart or whatever?

It never entered my mind. Indeed I think I would have been rather embarrassed that such a minor “wound” should be recognised by a medal or stripes especially as a few weeks later one on my soldiers was killed by a grenade and we buried him in Silent Valley.

With apologies to those who read this in an earlier version of this topic in March 2008.

Originally Posted by jumpinjarhead

Originally Posted by Oil_Slick

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Originally Posted by Magdovus

I don't know. For example- those who have returned physically unscathed yet carry the scars of PTSD for the rest of their lives- would they qualify?

Will I qualify with the piles I suffered with out there?

Well, I've heard that the Cousins can qualify for a medal if they're treated for a boil on their arses in the field so you may be on to a winner. :D

While I appreciate that this is a British-based forum, having been privileged to lead American Marines in battle, some of whom were killed or wounded, I cannot let your remark go without comment. I realize you may well have been trying to be humorous but in this case it goes too far in my humble opinion. While I will not try to argue that, just as in any military (yes, even in that of Great Britain) there may be abuses of awards in our military, your broadside insults those who I have personally witnessed to have suffered grievous wounds for which they received the Purple Heart and who do not deserve such slander, even if in jest.
[/i]

Tell us about John Kerry's Purple Hearts…


http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200405041626.asp

I did in general--as I said there are abuses of awards in every nation's military. Does that then mean that those who received them legitimately should be tarred with the same brush? John Kerry is anathaema to a true combat officer and I have little doubt that there are such charlatans in every nation's military.

Originally Posted by woodandy3

perhaps they could award it to lads/lasses who get medically discharged as a result of said injury!!

There was a bloke hopping around Afghanistan last year with one leg (Para I think). He stayed in the army, where as Ive known one person who fell down a scud trench (while under the influence of alcohol) get a medical discharge.

Originally Posted by stacker1

There was a bloke hopping around Afghanistan last year with one leg (Para I think). He stayed in the army, where as Ive known one person who fell down a scud trench (while under the influence of alcohol) get a medical discharge.

Both blokes in 3 PARA who lost a leg on H4 are still serving. Blokes are also discharged for loss of hearing. Will they get the purple heart?