It's poppycock to grow crops here but destroy them in Afghan

**leveller** · 13-07-2009, 14:49

Total guess here (tin foil hat on please).

If tonnes of cheap natural opiates come on to the market due to a deal in AFG, then a few major drug companies (I'll bet in the US), will be up sh1t street, as their synthetic versions will have very little value.
The drug company employs americans, some of who will be out on ear with the arrival of the organic version.

Tin foil hat bit...

Whats the betting these companies are lobbying (buying off), that no deal should be done, as it will be a vote loser??????

**Bugsy** · 13-07-2009, 14:54

Originally Posted by leveller

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

We're not saying do away with patients administered opiate type medications you lunatic. Do away with scumbag heroin junkies.

Problem is, not all 'junkies' are street or squat dwellers, most are normal members of the community, and you wont be able to spot them. Doctors can be some of the worst offenders of opiates, remember the concervativce medical advisor, had been jacking up for years!

This is true. Only about 2 percent of junkies hang around in the alleys. The rest are actors, lawyers, judges, architects, bank managers, company bosses etc.

Serious question: what's the difference between a scumbag junkie and a scumbag alki, given that both have been taking their "drug" for, say, 20 years?

Answer: the scumbag alki is physically fÃ¼cked. Liver, stomach, nerves, brain, arteries etc, all a direct effect of alcohol abuse. While the "scumbag junkie" has no physical deterioration whatsoever.

MsG

**jarrod248** · 13-07-2009, 15:43

Originally Posted by leveller

Originally Posted by Voltiguer

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Why not kill every heroin addict on the planet. Hey presto! No more market for opium! It's not as if heroin addicts deserve to live.

Yep, British junkies (and junkies the world over) help fund the Taliban in killing British troops when they shoot up.

How about a test case in a court of law that attaches 'treason' to the charge sheet for dealing and possession of these drugs? Then reinstitute the death penalty as a possible sentence for treason (it wasn't so long ago that that was repealed, late 90s or early 2000s) and make a few examples. It wouldn't take long, people would get the message and, after this and targetting the key routes it enters the country and key nodes of dealers within the country, we could see a decline in the amount of heroin used and sold here. Other countries would have to follow suit for a concerted effect, perhaps USA as they already practice the death penalty and can be very pro-forces.

Mitigates the problem at home and reduces the market for the Talibs to sell to, reducing their funding and activity. Although I'd agree that just buying off the farmers in the first place is a more elegant solution (if full of difficulties).

Absolute joke, so what are you going to do with Coke/Crack/Meth/Hash/Weed/Speed/E's/PCP/etc then?

Just a reminder, dont forget prohibition worked well in the States didnt it??

We would have more people using drugs in harder to reach areas. The rate of HIV and Hepatitis would go through the roof. Prohibition didn't work and won't work now.

**jarrod248** · 13-07-2009, 15:47

Originally Posted by leveller

Originally Posted by Mr_Deputy

Originally Posted by leveller

Absolute joke, so what are you going to do with Coke/Crack/Meth/Hash/Weed/Speed/E's/PCP/etc then?

Just a reminder, dont forget prohibition worked well in the States didnt it??

Fuck em. Let them die or sober up.
Pandering to them just makes it worse. Go to Atlantic City if you want to see how a nice cushy life plus access to drugs equals zombies. Why cater for that? I see no reason. Fewer drugs on the streeet equals fewer junkies. That, by the way, is what they call a good thing.

Also Prohibition was a good exercise but in terms of your using it as an example - it doesn't work as alcohol is not quite the same as heroin etc. The addictive qualities of alcohol are far less than opiates etc. Don't bother arguing that with me (about figures for alcoholics etc - I know they exist no one is saying otherwise) its not worth it. Dope is far more addictivce and likely to screw your life up if you try it more than once or twice.

So you wipe out the Afgan poppy trade, then it will be grown in Turkey (already is both legal and illegal), Jordan, Lebenon, some split state of the USSR, or what about the South americans having a go to fill the gap?

So where gonna invade these places inturn?

I have only known one person to die from Heroin, but plenty from Alcohol, or needing a new liver.

Ask Jarrod which is harder to break the addiction, I think it would be alcohol.

I'd go with alcohol, with opiate addiction we can give substitutes and people get better really quickly. With alcohol we look at abstinance and people tend to struggle with that.
The opiate substitutes don't cause any long term harm and people can lead normal lives.
I've known many people die from Heroin use but mainly when released from prison and low/no tolerance or they have mixed with alcohol or benzodiazepines.

**msr** · 13-07-2009, 15:47

Originally Posted by jarrod248

Prohibition didn't work and won't work now.

And neither are our current policies in Afghanistan.

**sc_obvious** · 13-07-2009, 15:49

Originally Posted by msr

Originally Posted by sc_obvious

One major issue I see doing this would be the Afghan Govt.

Remind me why we are there again...

Depends what you mean by 'We' I suppose. I'm guessing you know why the military are there :D but the other 'We' (FCO/DFIDetc) are supposed representing the UK as the lead nation on Anti-narcotics. Well at least we used to be, don't know whether we handed that little hot potato over to someone else who can actually do something

**msr** · 13-07-2009, 15:50

Well seeing as DfID and the FCO are about as much use as a fish on bicycle...

**Bugsy** · 13-07-2009, 15:54

Originally Posted by jarrod248

Originally Posted by leveller

Originally Posted by Voltiguer

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Why not kill every heroin addict on the planet. Hey presto! No more market for opium! It's not as if heroin addicts deserve to live.

Yep, British junkies (and junkies the world over) help fund the Taliban in killing British troops when they shoot up.

How about a test case in a court of law that attaches 'treason' to the charge sheet for dealing and possession of these drugs? Then reinstitute the death penalty as a possible sentence for treason (it wasn't so long ago that that was repealed, late 90s or early 2000s) and make a few examples. It wouldn't take long, people would get the message and, after this and targetting the key routes it enters the country and key nodes of dealers within the country, we could see a decline in the amount of heroin used and sold here. Other countries would have to follow suit for a concerted effect, perhaps USA as they already practice the death penalty and can be very pro-forces.

Mitigates the problem at home and reduces the market for the Talibs to sell to, reducing their funding and activity. Although I'd agree that just buying off the farmers in the first place is a more elegant solution (if full of difficulties).

Absolute joke, so what are you going to do with Coke/Crack/Meth/Hash/Weed/Speed/E's/PCP/etc then?

Just a reminder, dont forget prohibition worked well in the States didnt it??

We would have more people using drugs in harder to reach areas. The rate of HIV and Hepatitis would go through the roof. Prohibition didn't work and won't work now.

(My bold in your quote). You state that as if it's a done deal, whereas long-term observations in Switzerland and Holland prove exactly the opposite. It's thus logical to assume that much the same process would happen in the UK.

I also disagree that the incidence of HIV and hepatitis would radically increase. Needle and syringe swaps are very effective in that respect.

MsG

**OldRedCap** · 13-07-2009, 15:58

Originally Posted by terroratthepicnic

Why not pay these farmers to grow GM foods. But pay them slightly more than they would get for the poppy crop. It would still be cheaper than growing it here.

We do not have sufficient troops in place to do the fighting. To ensure that farmers do not grow poppies and to get in and destroy these would reduce the fighting capability. This monitoring would also soak up heli frames and hours

**sc_obvious** · 13-07-2009, 16:09

Originally Posted by msr

Well seeing as DfID and the FCO are about as much use as a fish on bicycle...

I seem to remember the FCO PUS visiting the embassy and out of all the problems that we faced out there what do you think was their No 1 priority ? The one message they wanted him to take back to the UK ?

Their swimming pool was not completed

We (the military bods) were absolutely astounded.

**oldcolt** · 13-07-2009, 16:17

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

The idea of buying up the poppy crop misses the point. The Taliban need money, so they force farmers to grow poppies for heroine and use the money to fund themselves. If maize would make more money it would be maize. If we were to pay the farmers direct for their crops, the Taliban would just extort the money from the farmers. Poppies are not the problem, its stemming the funding to the Taliban that needs solving. Do you not think if it was as easy as buying up the crop someone would have tried it by now?

MSR is bang on on this one: The British Army has used similar tactics in the past to defeat terrorists and with the right assets being deployed, could be done again:
'We' buy the Heroin from farmers in selected areas at a higher than market price in return for stationing troops in firebases in or near the farms to provide protection. The Talibs lose a source of income and the farmers get to earn a living whilst enjoying good security. As each area comes under our protection the Talibs are forced out further and further, all the while being harried and killed by our forces. Local population sees benefit of being on the side of the Brits/ NATO and, as has been said previously on this thread, after a while, we encourage/ pay the farmers to grow other crops/ use their land for other means (solar power/ whatever, it doesn't really matter).

We could call it something catchy... I know, hearts and minds! Bravo MSR

**msr** · 13-07-2009, 16:24

It's not my idea: http://www.poppyformedicine.net/

I've just been banging on about it for a long time.

**oldcolt** · 13-07-2009, 16:29

Originally Posted by msr

It's not my idea: http://www.poppyformedicine.net/

I've just been banging on about it for a long time.

I realise that

as have I to anyone who will listen but, its good to see it on a thread and even better to see it on the BBC where it might, just might, gain enough support to get someone to take it seriously

**Bugsy** · 13-07-2009, 16:33

Originally Posted by oldcolt

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

The idea of buying up the poppy crop misses the point. The Taliban need money, so they force farmers to grow poppies for heroine and use the money to fund themselves. If maize would make more money it would be maize. If we were to pay the farmers direct for their crops, the Taliban would just extort the money from the farmers. Poppies are not the problem, its stemming the funding to the Taliban that needs solving. Do you not think if it was as easy as buying up the crop someone would have tried it by now?

MSR is bang on on this one: The British Army has used similar tactics in the past to defeat terrorists and with the right assets being deployed, could be done again:
'We' buy the Heroin from farmers in selected areas at a higher than market price in return for stationing troops in firebases in or near the farms to provide protection. The Talibs lose a source of income and the farmers get to earn a living whilst enjoying good security. As each area comes under our protection the Talibs are forced out further and further, all the while being harried and killed by our forces. Local population sees benefit of being on the side of the Brits/ NATO and, as has been said previously on this thread, after a while, we encourage/ pay the farmers to grow other crops/ use their land for other means (solar power/ whatever, it doesn't really matter).

We could call it something catchy... I know, hearts and minds! Bravo MSR

It certainly sounds doable on that basis. The problems could conceivably start due to a lack of manpower. I doubt very much that you could carry out the process effectively with fewer than about 100,000 bods. And that's just for Helmand province.

That would mean getting the Septics to sign up to the deal. And we all know what they're like with dope.

MsG

**oldcolt** · 13-07-2009, 16:34

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by oldcolt

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

The idea of buying up the poppy crop misses the point. The Taliban need money, so they force farmers to grow poppies for heroine and use the money to fund themselves. If maize would make more money it would be maize. If we were to pay the farmers direct for their crops, the Taliban would just extort the money from the farmers. Poppies are not the problem, its stemming the funding to the Taliban that needs solving. Do you not think if it was as easy as buying up the crop someone would have tried it by now?

MSR is bang on on this one: The British Army has used similar tactics in the past to defeat terrorists and with the right assets being deployed, could be done again:
'We' buy the Heroin from farmers in selected areas at a higher than market price in return for stationing troops in firebases in or near the farms to provide protection. The Talibs lose a source of income and the farmers get to earn a living whilst enjoying good security. As each area comes under our protection the Talibs are forced out further and further, all the while being harried and killed by our forces. Local population sees benefit of being on the side of the Brits/ NATO and, as has been said previously on this thread, after a while, we encourage/ pay the farmers to grow other crops/ use their land for other means (solar power/ whatever, it doesn't really matter).

We could call it something catchy... I know, hearts and minds! Bravo MSR

It certainly sounds doable on that basis. The problems could conceivably start due to a lack of manpower. I doubt very much that you could carry out the process effectively with fewer than about 100,000 bods. And that's just for Helmand province.

That would mean getting the Septics to sign up to the deal. And we all know what they're like with dope.

MsG

Inject them with the product first! SORTED!