It's poppycock to grow crops here but destroy them in Afghan

**Mr_Deputy** · 13-07-2009, 12:59

Originally Posted by leveller

Absolute joke, so what are you going to do with Coke/Crack/Meth/Hash/Weed/Speed/E's/PCP/etc then?

Just a reminder, dont forget prohibition worked well in the States didnt it??

Fuck em. Let them die or sober up.
Pandering to them just makes it worse. Go to Atlantic City if you want to see how a nice cushy life plus access to drugs equals zombies. Why cater for that? I see no reason. Fewer drugs on the streeet equals fewer junkies. That, by the way, is what they call a good thing.

Also Prohibition was a good exercise but in terms of your using it as an example - it doesn't work as alcohol is not quite the same as heroin etc. The addictive qualities of alcohol are far less than opiates etc. Don't bother arguing that with me (about figures for alcoholics etc - I know they exist no one is saying otherwise) its not worth it. Dope is far more addictivce and likely to screw your life up if you try it more than once or twice.

**leveller** · 13-07-2009, 13:04

Originally Posted by Mr_Deputy

Originally Posted by leveller

Absolute joke, so what are you going to do with Coke/Crack/Meth/Hash/Weed/Speed/E's/PCP/etc then?

Just a reminder, dont forget prohibition worked well in the States didnt it??

Fuck em. Let them die or sober up.
Pandering to them just makes it worse. Go to Atlantic City if you want to see how a nice cushy life plus access to drugs equals zombies. Why cater for that? I see no reason. Fewer drugs on the streeet equals fewer junkies. That, by the way, is what they call a good thing.

Also Prohibition was a good exercise but in terms of your using it as an example - it doesn't work as alcohol is not quite the same as heroin etc. The addictive qualities of alcohol are far less than opiates etc. Don't bother arguing that with me (about figures for alcoholics etc - I know they exist no one is saying otherwise) its not worth it. Dope is far more addictivce and likely to screw your life up if you try it more than once or twice.

So you wipe out the Afgan poppy trade, then it will be grown in Turkey (already is both legal and illegal), Jordan, Lebenon, some split state of the USSR, or what about the South americans having a go to fill the gap?

So where gonna invade these places inturn?

I have only known one person to die from Heroin, but plenty from Alcohol, or needing a new liver.

Ask Jarrod which is harder to break the addiction, I think it would be alcohol.

**msr** · 13-07-2009, 13:08

Originally Posted by leveller

So you wipe out the Afgan poppy trade, then it will be grown in Turkey (already is both legal and illegal), Jordan, Lebenon, some split state of the USSR, or what about the South americans having a go to fill the gap?

But you are not wiping it out. It is still there, but turned to legal purposes.

And funny you should mention Turkey: http://www.poppyformedicine.net/modules/case_studies

MSR

**Vaughany** · 13-07-2009, 13:09

Is it practical for them to grow another crop that could be useful for their home and export markets, such as something you can make bio-diesel from or other medical plants?

**Mr_Deputy** · 13-07-2009, 13:10

Originally Posted by leveller

Originally Posted by Mr_Deputy

Originally Posted by leveller

Absolute joke, so what are you going to do with Coke/Crack/Meth/Hash/Weed/Speed/E's/PCP/etc then?

Just a reminder, dont forget prohibition worked well in the States didnt it??

Fuck em. Let them die or sober up.
Pandering to them just makes it worse. Go to Atlantic City if you want to see how a nice cushy life plus access to drugs equals zombies. Why cater for that? I see no reason. Fewer drugs on the streeet equals fewer junkies. That, by the way, is what they call a good thing.

Also Prohibition was a good exercise but in terms of your using it as an example - it doesn't work as alcohol is not quite the same as heroin etc. The addictive qualities of alcohol are far less than opiates etc. Don't bother arguing that with me (about figures for alcoholics etc - I know they exist no one is saying otherwise) its not worth it. Dope is far more addictivce and likely to screw your life up if you try it more than once or twice.

So you wipe out the Afgan poppy trade, then it will be grown in Turkey (already is both legal and illegal), Jordan, Lebenon, some split state of the USSR, or what about the South americans having a go to fill the gap?

If Turkey want to be in the EU they will have to spend serious money and effort in reducing the production in that case. Which they would probably do. Arab countries such as the ones you mentioned might pick up the trade but why don't they already if there is such a market?
The point is that its already happening - I could prob go out and buy some badly cut skanky heroin within an hour if I go into London.

It boils down to this : Opium has some positive uses, there is a world wide medical need for it so taking the Afghan production by the balls would have a number of good effects.

**leveller** · 13-07-2009, 13:13

Originally Posted by msr

Originally Posted by leveller

So you wipe out the Afgan poppy trade, then it will be grown in Turkey (already is both legal and illegal), Jordan, Lebenon, some split state of the USSR, or what about the South americans having a go to fill the gap?

But you are not wiping it out. It is still there, but turned to legal purposes.

And funny you should mention Turkey: http://www.poppyformedicine.net/modules/case_studies

MSR

Well you wont wipe out the junkies I'll put my house on it.

Look under Tazmania for 50% of Medical Opiates

**msr** · 13-07-2009, 13:14

Originally Posted by leveller

Originally Posted by msr

Originally Posted by leveller

So you wipe out the Afgan poppy trade, then it will be grown in Turkey (already is both legal and illegal), Jordan, Lebenon, some split state of the USSR, or what about the South americans having a go to fill the gap?

But you are not wiping it out. It is still there, but turned to legal purposes.

And funny you should mention Turkey: http://www.poppyformedicine.net/modules/case_studies

MSR

Well you wont wipe out the junkies I'll put my house on it.

Look under Tazmania for 50% of Medical Opiates

Of course not

But that is not what this solution is about...

**kangorrilapig** · 13-07-2009, 13:39

Having spent time working as part of a garrison towns Mental Health Team and with their Methadone Clinic I can only say that 'shooting' all Heroin/Opiate misusers would mean including many ex-service people and even some still serving It is a sad fact that the number of people both misusing and those medically dependant after injuries received, often on active or essential service is growing rapidly(myself included) without prescribed opiate based meds I would have no quality of life at all I am an ex-serviceman and my current need began following injuries incurred while on duty.If buying the poppy crop could increase the stock of legal pain relieving drugs I can certainly see need for this.Unfortunately AFG also provides a growing number of people who need this product both with or without prescription.

**Fallschirmjager** · 13-07-2009, 14:11

We're not saying do away with patients administered opiate type medications you lunatic. Do away with scumbag heroin junkies.

**leveller** · 13-07-2009, 14:18

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

We're not saying do away with patients administered opiate type medications you lunatic. Do away with scumbag heroin junkies.

Problem is, not all 'junkies' are street or squat dwellers, most are normal members of the community, and you wont be able to spot them. Doctors can be some of the worst offenders of opiates, remember the concervativce medical advisor, had been jacking up for years!

**Mr_Deputy** · 13-07-2009, 14:23

Originally Posted by Vaughany

Is it practical for them to grow another crop that could be useful for their home and export markets, such as something you can make bio-diesel from or other medical plants?

Tough one. I personally feel that the best way to generate energy in hot countries would be to plaster huge swathes of land/mountains in solar cells it would need big investment but then again so does the oil industry. Cells are getting to the stage where this isn't impossible an idea and in the back rooms of research institutes etc ideas like this are being looked into. Cells and batteries would give alot of uses - even for transport. With energy there is chance also to run large de-salination projects too. But that's maybe not pratical just yet. Be great if it was.

Back to your point about bio fuels I was in a French company's labs a couple of years back talking about grain and they spoke to me about an idea where Africa could grow huge amounts of grain which in turn could be processed for oil. They then showed me some plastic products which were made from wheat oil. The properties of the plastic were almost identical to those of 'nomal' plastic - except that amusingly the thin stuff (for bags etc) had the odour of bread about it! The thermoset stuff was rigid and even completely see-thru.
Bio-fuels take alot of energy to process and water to grow.

Maybe a compination of solar energy, de-salination and abundant crops could really fix the world. It will need the right minds and the resolve to do it. And a load of big swinging baws.

**Mr_Deputy** · 13-07-2009, 14:29

Originally Posted by leveller

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

We're not saying do away with patients administered opiate type medications you lunatic. Do away with scumbag heroin junkies.

Problem is, not all 'junkies' are street or squat dwellers, most are normal members of the community, and you wont be able to spot them. Doctors can be some of the worst offenders of opiates, remember the concervativce medical advisor, had been jacking up for years!

ambush the drugs clinics and where the dealers deal! :D

Consider this though : My ex was Colombian (left as a child) and she would argue til blue in the face that it was drug users which fck her country of birth up as its their habits which create the demand and as life is life - the demand gets met. Took me years to realise there is alot of truth in that.

But I'm not sure this bigger arguement about taking control of the crop should get dragged off into too much discussion of drug addicts and how lovely they are.

there is no denying that people like KangGorillapig need some pain relief (I hope its genuine what you say)

**sc_obvious** · 13-07-2009, 14:42

A couple of years back I did a bit of work for the Embassy Drugs Team in Kabul and they were looking into Alternate Livlihoods for the farmers. The problem was that we would have to massively subsidise the farmers if we asked them to grow anything other than poppy (and then inspect their farms to confirm they were actually not growing poppy). If I remember rightly a farmer will earn more from 1 Acre of Poppy than the next 10 best selling crops put together which says it all really.

Why not guarantee to buy the whole poppy crop for the next 3 years (maybe go halves with the Yanks) and then introduce incentives/subsidies to the farmers to grow other crops after that. This would take the money out of the Talibs hands for a significant period and whilst yes, drug production would ramp up in other areas, the Taliban would lose out on the money they currently make. It would also take a bit of time for the other regions to ramp up their production and get the smuggling infrastructure in place to take on the new amounts Heroin.

One major issue I see doing this would be the Afghan Govt. It is well documented that there is widespread drug based corruption within their govt and I am sure that there would be 'resistance' to any move that would put their earnings at risk.

**kangorrilapig** · 13-07-2009, 14:46

I think my points already been well made.our'society' includes all kinds of people.It's not a huge step from 'I'll just have another to be sure to 'Jesus' they've stopped my Meds, what do I do now!However the other point was if the crop can be used effectively why not?It would certainly take a lot of wind out of Terry's sails!