Originally Posted by Strait_Jacket

Originally Posted by Whet

We do have the cabs - nominally. However, to fly them constantly in theatre would bugger up Harmony guidelines for aviation types.

Harmony guidelines???! Were you pissing yourself laughing while writing that?

If they are not carrying a weapon a contractor can do the job. If HMG didn't believe that even our current op's would be impossible.

Really? REME blackies and Greenies aren't servicing AAC cabs? AAC groundcrew are replaced totally by civvies whilst they are in Afghanistan? Since helicopters are in theatre - what are these contractors contracted to do?

Anyone who has seen the vast monolith that MOD procurement borecats have built for themselves at Abbey Wood in Bristol - absolutely no expense spared - will understand why we don't have enough helicopters or enough of anything and everything kit-wise.

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”
Winston S Churchill

“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm”
George Orwell

The point made about the 5 foot patrol casualties and helo transport is true, but it is a narrow focus. The wider debate needs to be about providing enough troops to ensure that ground taken is held to remove the need for repeated patrols leading to even more casualties.

Originally Posted by Whet

Originally Posted by Strait_Jacket

Originally Posted by Whet

We do have the cabs - nominally. However, to fly them constantly in theatre would bugger up Harmony guidelines for aviation types.

Harmony guidelines???! Were you pissing yourself laughing while writing that?

If they are not carrying a weapon a contractor can do the job. If HMG didn't believe that even our current op's would be impossible.

Really? REME blackies and Greenies aren't servicing AAC cabs? AAC groundcrew are replaced totally by civvies whilst they are in Afghanistan? Since helicopters are in theatre - what are these contractors contracted to do?

Do you know how many civilian contractors now have mandatory obligations to deploy as part of the service contracts?

If we were to purchase more Chinooks, could we arrange for a detachment of US maintenance bods to assist our own while they train up?

What do they do at Odiham, if there arn't enough Chinook fitters and aircrew

Originally Posted by Magdovus

If we were to purchase more Chinooks, could we arrange for a detachment of US maintenance bods to assist our own while they train up?

Not if we alter our Chinooks by 'fully integrating them to UK standard'.

We could learn from the Canadian procurement model, but alas that would be contrary to 'best practice'. :(

Originally Posted by Whet

Originally Posted by Strait_Jacket

Originally Posted by Whet

We do have the cabs - nominally. However, to fly them constantly in theatre would bugger up Harmony guidelines for aviation types.

Harmony guidelines???! Were you pissing yourself laughing while writing that?

If they are not carrying a weapon a contractor can do the job. If HMG didn't believe that even our current op's would be impossible.

Really? REME blackies and Greenies aren't servicing AAC cabs? AAC groundcrew are replaced totally by civvies whilst they are in Afghanistan? Since helicopters are in theatre - what are these contractors contracted to do?

Look this isn't the time or the place for your work as a Neu Arbeit disembler.

I did not suggest that all aircraft servicing is being done by civivies on contract. I did say that contractors are used widely for various technical roles in theatre with full approval of HMG. I know this because it's my job to put them there. The fact that you don't suggests that you are even further out of your depth in this conversation than I had imagined, and that anyone reading this should attribute as much weight to your comments on the subject as the opinions of David Icke.

Is that clearer now?

Originally Posted by MrPVRd

The point made about the 5 foot patrol casualties and helo transport is true, but it is a narrow focus. The wider debate needs to be about providing enough troops to ensure that ground taken is held to remove the need for repeated patrols leading to even more casualties.

The point I was trying to make is that the current hot topic of helicopters is falsely premised upon the losses of life that sparked it.

If you read back through this thread, you'll see that I consider the lack of helicopters to be the symptom of the problem and that massaging said symptom will do nothing to cure the problem. See also my comments regarding domination the battlespace vis-a-viz militarily and morally.

To quote from the RAF's own website:

The RAF operates the largest fleet of Chinook Support Helicopters after the US Army, with a total of 34 HC2s, 6 HC2As. If we have only 8 airframes in theatre (with one on permanent standby as a medivac vehicle) reducing it to 7, how come we have also the capability to do this in the UK:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/chinookdisplayteam/

Surely the flying hours and airframes would be better being upgraded and moved to where they are needed rather than entertaining the crowds at the following:

3 May Abingdon View Web Site
17 May Duxford View Web Site
6-7 June France Le Luc airfield
14 June Cosford View Web Site
19-20 June RNLAF Volkel
21 June Kemble View Web Site
27 June Biggin Hill View Web Site
3-5 July Waddington View Web Site
11 July RNAS Yeovilton View Web Site
11-12 July Swansea View Web Site
17-19 July RIAT Fairford View Web Site
24-26 July East fortune & Windermere View Web Site
26 July Sunderland View Web Site
29 Jul RNAS Culdrose View Web Site
1 Aug East kirkby View Web Site
20-23 Aug Bournemouth View Web Site
28-29 Aug Dartmouth Royal Regatta View Web Site
30 Aug Dunsfold Wings & Wheels View Web Site
5-6 Sep Duxford View Web Site
10 Sep Jersey/Guernsey View Web Site
26 Sep Southport View Web Site

Its not so much a question of buying new airframes, we already have 40 of them, just get them deployed to where they are needed. Or is it the RAF playing politics again, having a tame Chief of Defence Staff who wants to retain his empire and political control over the activities of the other 2 services.