Thread: 'More helicopters are not the answer in Afghanistan'

I'm slightly confused. I know we bought 6 Merlins from the Danes a couple of years ago, but have they been Released to Service? If so, is the release limited in some way, which prevents them being deployed?

When, precisely, will the Danes' replacements be delivered and enter service?

Originally Posted by bakersfield

I'm slightly confused. I know we bought 6 Merlins from the Danes a couple of years ago, but have they been Released to Service? If so, is the release limited in some way, which prevents them being deployed?

When, precisely, will the Danes' replacements be delivered and enter service?

The entered service last summer.

Whitecity,

The Mechanical side of the HC3A is near enough identical to the HC3, the only difference being a small change in materials used.

However, the Danes specified a different Avionics fit to that contained within the UK HC3's. The Danish SAR cabs have a full digital glass cockpit with American radio fit, the list is longer but not open source as it includes DAS and other equipment. And Yes I said SAR cabs, we wanted the Tactical Troop Transport variant (TTT). The Danes were emphatic these were not for sale, I wouldn't sell the newest, most reliable and useful area of my fleet either!

We now have a fleet within a fleet and both lack proper spares provisioning, the HC3A being worse as some elements of equipment fell outside the remit of the IMOS spares contract and ment once broken it could not be replaced or repaired.

JHC will not commit Merlin to Herrick until the fleet is returned from Telic, due to budgetary constraints. That is what we are saying is it not? To not send Airframes is bad enough but to have them U/S on the deck for a want of spares is politically the worse option.

The first Ex Danish Merlin's flew in July 2007, these initial two aircraft were known as Danish Military Rotary Helicopter (DMRH) as they had not been demodded to HC3A standard. I stand by my earlier post, IF we had properly provisioned spares for the RAF Merlin fleet we would be in Herrick now not just flying flat pack furniture from Basra to Kuwait.

MH

Originally Posted by MeRlInHaTeR

Whitecity,

The Mechanical side of the HC3A is near enough identical to the HC3, the only difference being a small change in materials used.

However, the Danes specified a different Avionics fit to that contained within the UK HC3's. The Danish SAR cabs have a full digital glass cockpit with American radio fit, the list is longer but not open source as it includes DAS and other equipment. And Yes I said SAR cabs, we wanted the Tactical Troop Transport variant (TTT). The Danes were emphatic these were not for sale, I wouldn't sell the newest, most reliable and useful area of my fleet either!

We now have a fleet within a fleet and both lack proper spares provisioning, the HC3A being worse as some elements of equipment fell outside the remit of the IMOS spares contract and ment once broken it could not be replaced or repaired.

JHC will not commit Merlin to Herrick until the fleet is returned from Telic, due to budgetary constraints. That is what we are saying is it not? To not send Airframes is bad enough but to have them U/S on the deck for a want of spares is politically the worse option.

The first Ex Danish Merlin's flew in July 2007, these initial two aircraft were known as Danish Military Rotary Helicopter (DMRH) as they had not been demodded to HC3A standard. I stand by my earlier post, IF we had properly provisioned spares for the RAF Merlin fleet we would be in Herrick now not just flying flat pack furniture from Basra to Kuwait.

MH

Thank you.

Although you have highlighted one key area of my knowledge/ignorance, we seem to be singing from the same songsheet: there is a fundamental - and longstanding - lack of spares across the entire Merlin fleet. It is not just an issue within the ex-Danish batch.

I fully understand the sense in NOT deploying the same aircraft to two separate operational theaters if the support infrastructure doesn't exist. And that is the telling point to take note of, the UK finds itself incapable of supporting two operational theaters simultaneously with the same fleet and needs (according to official wording) a minimum of four months to transition from one theatre to another.

That's a sad tale to be telling of a country with pretentions of global reach.

"We now have a fleet within a fleet and both lack proper spares provisioning, the HC3A being worse as some elements of equipment fell outside the remit of the IMOS spares contract and ment once broken it could not be replaced or repaired"

At the risk of opening a huge can of worms here - why is spares an issue when on deployment? All deployment spares are covered by the NACMO rules - bung the birds into theatre and starting sending the bills to HM Treasury as we would for any other spares purchase!

Originally Posted by jim30

"We now have a fleet within a fleet and both lack proper spares provisioning, the HC3A being worse as some elements of equipment fell outside the remit of the IMOS spares contract and ment once broken it could not be replaced or repaired"

At the risk of opening a huge can of worms here - why is spares an issue when on deployment? All deployment spares are covered by the NACMO rules - bung the birds into theatre and starting sending the bills to HM Treasury as we would for any other spares purchase!

I understand that, according to peacetime guidelines and practices, the core spares holding is not sufficient to 'permit' a deployment at scale X without creating an impact on non-deployed operations - and certainly not two concurrently.

Similar woes apply to the Apache.

Something else for Whet to ponder and lick his whiskers over...

Is the UK chartering civil helicopters directly, or was this one of the NATO chartered aircraft that Whet has never heard about before?

Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): Will the Secretary of State confirm whether the helicopter that is believed to have been shot down earlier this week, with the loss of eight lives, was a NATO helicopter, or was directly leased, if that is the right word, by the United Kingdom? I understand that it was a supply helicopter, and the insurgents may well have believed that it was a Chinook.

David Miliband: I think that the hon. Lady is referring to the six Ukrainians who lost their lives when their helicopter was shot down earlier this week. I do not want to trespass on to operational details. I think that it would be better if we considered what we are able to say publicly about that incident, and then referred to the matter at the end of the debate. There is some information, but it does not quite tally with what she suggested. I suggest that we seriously take on board her inquiry, but right hon. and hon. Members will know that there are good reasons why we do not go into details here.

and

Ann Winterton: Is the right hon. Gentleman able to answer the question that I posed to the Foreign Secretary at the outset of this debate about the helicopter that had been contracted to the British?

Mr. Ainsworth: We suffered the loss of a contract helicopter in the north of Helmand province and there were deaths as a result of that. I will write to the hon. Lady and give her more detail on it if she wants. I know that she often raises the issue of vehicles and that she has had a long-standing interest in the subject. People continue to say that there is a huge problem with vehicles. We have a suite of vehicles now, including Mastiff, Ridgback and Jackal. We also have the new tactical support vehicles—Wolfhound, Husky and Coyote—coming into province. It is cruel to pretend to those who have lost their lives that we will be able to stop our people dying by providing more helicopters or a suite of vehicles. Many Members have said that this afternoon, however. Even if we can get to the point where every single vehicle is available in every single location the length and breadth of the Helmand province for every operation, from time to time people will have to get out of those vehicles. They have to make contact with the people; they have to walk among them and win them over. That is dangerous work and it is cruel to pretend that we can remove the danger from the job that we ask our people to do.

Not sure if this has already been mentioned on this thread at all, but even if the MoD were to provide more airframes, there isn't enough people to either crew them, and currently there isn't enough QHIs to train an already depleted Lynx fleet.

The protection afforded to British helicopters (referring to lynxin the main) is shitloads better than that which was fitted when invading Iraq in 03, which was sod all (having been there). And there's a few other thingsicould add but can't due to opsec, sorry.

Originally Posted by MeRlInHaTeR

Whitecity,

The Mechanical side of the HC3A is near enough identical to the HC3, the only difference being a small change in materials used.

However, the Danes specified a different Avionics fit to that contained within the UK HC3's. The Danish SAR cabs have a full digital glass cockpit with American radio fit, the list is longer but not open source as it includes DAS and other equipment. And Yes I said SAR cabs, we wanted the Tactical Troop Transport variant (TTT). The Danes were emphatic these were not for sale, I wouldn't sell the newest, most reliable and useful area of my fleet either!

We now have a fleet within a fleet and both lack proper spares provisioning, the HC3A being worse as some elements of equipment fell outside the remit of the IMOS spares contract and ment once broken it could not be replaced or repaired.

JHC will not commit Merlin to Herrick until the fleet is returned from Telic, due to budgetary constraints. That is what we are saying is it not? To not send Airframes is bad enough but to have them U/S on the deck for a want of spares is politically the worse option.

The first Ex Danish Merlin's flew in July 2007, these initial two aircraft were known as Danish Military Rotary Helicopter (DMRH) as they had not been demodded to HC3A standard. I stand by my earlier post, IF we had properly provisioned spares for the RAF Merlin fleet we would be in Herrick now not just flying flat pack furniture from Basra to Kuwait.

MH

What is the difference between SAR and tactical transport? IIRC all the ones we modded had ramps, large side doors, winches, UK spec radio's and fittings for things that go bang. BTW i didn't read this from flight international, i was part of the team that did the work.

Strange post this.

Four days ago the 'Divine Leader' was saying that the shortage of helicopters was '........ irrelevant .. and NOT responsible for soldiers' deaths.....' (or words to that effect).

Now following 'advice and guidance' - ORDERS actually, from Mr. Mandelson (unelected and twice disgraced)_- the dysfunctional, psychotically afflicted, socially inadequate, wholly disconnected twerp Brown says he will 'listen to the generals'.

Why has 'No-balls' Stirrup suddenly sided with Sir Richard Dannett? My guess is he has been ordered to by Mr. Mandelson - the de facto Prime Minister.

I THINK IT MAY BE THE BEGINNING OF THE END, WHEN AN ARMED FORCES OFFICER SPOUTS THE POLITICAL PARTY IN POWER'S LINE.

SHAME! SHAME!

What is the difference between SAR and tactical transport? IIRC all the ones we modded had ramps, large side doors, winches, UK spec radio's and fittings for things that go bang. BTW i didn't read this from flight international, i was part of the team that did the work.

SAR and TTT differences? The massive amount of search lights, the external speakers, the Galley, the neon paint job, plus some differences with DAS capabilities that dont go bang (Admittedly modded during the HC3A program)

Uk Spec radios? Not the same Spec as our MK3's are they? US made with resulting supply chain issues and very limited 2nd line support!

WTF?

Helicopter fleet to be reduced to save £1.4 billion the Times learns

"Under the Ministry of Defence’s plans for the future the total fleet will be reduced to 291 by 2019. This will involve the Fleet Air Arm reducing from 166 to 66 helicopters, the Army Air Corps from 198 to 112, and the RAF from 138 to 113.

The revelation came after the country’s most senior military officer emerged from talks with Gordon Brown to say that the deployment of more helicopters to Afghanistan would save lives. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6718583.ece

Can anyone clarify whether the reported cut of £1.5bn was a direct cut from the Treasury or as a result of changing priorities within the MoD, essentially moving the percentage of the budget for JHC in favour of something else.

Without wishing to go against the grain and not letting cyclops and his band of useless fcukers off the hook, could it possibly have been someone in green or blue that actually decided those priorities and they have neatly avoided any blame but pitching it as a Politician = BAD, Service Personnel = SAINTLY

Just a thought

Originally Posted by Blogg

WTF?

Helicopter fleet to be reduced to save £1.4 billion the Times learns

"Under the Ministry of Defence’s plans for the future the total fleet will be reduced to 291 by 2019. This will involve the Fleet Air Arm reducing from 166 to 66 helicopters, the Army Air Corps from 198 to 112, and the RAF from 138 to 113.

The revelation came after the country’s most senior military officer emerged from talks with Gordon Brown to say that the deployment of more helicopters to Afghanistan would save lives. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6718583.ece

What's the surprise in this?

RN has 61 Lynx Mk.3/8 in service which are due out of service by 2013 and 2015 respectively. The plan is to replace these with 28 Future Lynx.

AAC has 94 Lynx Mk.7/9 in service which are all due out of service by 2013. The plan is to replace these with 34 Future Lynx.

AAC has 42 Gazelle in service which are all due out of service by 2012. There is no intention to replace them at all.

The RAF/RN have 40 Sea King Mk.3/5 (SAR) in service which are all due out of service by 2017. The intention is to replace these with a PFI service.

The RN has 42 Sea King Mk.4/6 (SH) in service which are due out of service by 2012 and 2010 respectively. The intention is to replace them with the Future Medium Helicopter programme which allegedly is going to arrive in 2018 (haha!!!) - quantity unknown. The Sea Kings may get a life extension in the interim, but they can't find the cash to confirm the work....

The RN has 13 Sea King Mk.7 (AEW) in service which are all due out of service by 2018. They may get life extended and the intention is, perhaps, to replace them with the 4 MASC.

The RAF has 43 Puma in service which are all due out of service by 2012. The intention is to replace them with the Future Medium Helicopter programme which allegedly is going to arrive in 2018 (haha!!!) - quantity unknown. The Pumas may get a life extension in the interim, but they can't find the cash to confirm the work....

The RAF has 40 Chinook Mk.2/2A in service (not including the 8 hanger tarts) which are due out of service by 2015 and 2025 respectively. The intention is to life extend them to 2040. Clearly the 34 HC2s due to expire in 2015 are in urgent need of a decision to go ahead with this, but alas, they can't find the cash to confirm the work....

Originally Posted by MeRlInHaTeR

What is the difference between SAR and tactical transport? IIRC all the ones we modded had ramps, large side doors, winches, UK spec radio's and fittings for things that go bang. BTW i didn't read this from flight international, i was part of the team that did the work.

SAR and TTT differences? The massive amount of search lights, the external speakers, the Galley, the neon paint job, plus some differences with DAS capabilities that dont go bang (Admittedly modded during the HC3A program)

Uk Spec radios? Not the same Spec as our MK3's are they? US made with resulting supply chain issues and very limited 2nd line support!

So Bowman not UK spec then? Searchlights? Galley? Have you actually been inside a Mk 3A then?