Thread: AK47 vs SA80 Question of lethality

Using Black Hawk Down as a point of referrence for the terminal performance of 5.56 ammunition is not a good idea as we are talking about second hand interpretation of annecdotes spruced up to be dramatic. I can tell you point blank that a guman doped up on qat was quite resiliant to pain and more than a few kept going longer than they would otherwise after having all sorts of horrendous injuries inflicted upon them. This is nothing new of course, ask any police officer who has had to shoot a raging suspect on crystal meth and they will confirm just how little the target cares about the foot pounds delivered or at what velocity. Physics and narcotics are a bad mix just like gravity and Wily. E Coyote are you know?

Anyway, The 5.56x45 ball ammunition is very lethal at short range when fired out of the M4. Long as your target isn't doped up and withing 200 meters he's toast (well, even drugged he's dead but it might take a bit longer for him to stop fighting as he won't go into shock till he bleeds out.) Past that distance much the performance of the .223 out of the short barrel starts degrading rapidly and in places like Afghanistan's mountains where engagements occur routinely at 500 meters plus, the carbine is useless... thus the issuing of old M14's out of old stocks one per squad so that someone other than the two saw gunners can engage accurately. The real problem with the M4 has been reliability... the damned things have been seeing unacceptable rates of stoppages mainly because they are firing a round designed for a particular barrel length and failures to cycle have resulted. Of course, there is also the issue of the magazines having worn springs and such as our guys are deploying with the same mags they used for years of training but that is a whole other can of worms.

For an infantry standard weapon there has to be a happy medium between ease of use, accuracy, and effective range. We cannot afford to have separate systems to issue out depending upon where the fight is occuring so it seems the best bet is to field something in a caliber that can do both effectively from one rifle. Remmingtion .270 fits that bill perfectly... it is superior to .223 in every catagory yet is still small enough to be utilized out of a compact weapon with slightly reduced magazine capacity (25 to 28 rounds instead of 30... not a deal breaker as far as I'm concerned.) That being said, there is little chance that the US Army is going to go away from NATO standards... they certainly didn't vary when it came to the M24 years ago (that rifle was supposed to be fielded in .300 Winchester magnum not .308 which is why it was so heavy in the first place.) So... the best we can hope for is something that adresses the reliability issue by going away from direct gas impingement.

Oh... and concerning the original subject... the Kalashnikov is a very inaccurate POS that is lethal up to about 250 meters, past that the heavy round loses velocity quickly. It's fairly reliable mechanically... however since most 7.62x39 ammuntion out there is still corrosive it does need routine maintenance to keep functioning properly contrary to the rumors of it's capacity to keep working no matter what. It's a weapon designed for spraying on the assault pure and simple... same purpose as the mass produced PPSh submachine gun it replaced. In well trained hands it can be serviceable for close in work but I garauntee all of you would be ready to chuck it in favor of any Western weapon after a day or two of using one.

We had AR 15s in Mauritius during Op Cavort in Spring 1968. A drive through of a road block was hit with an AR 15 via the rear window seal through the back of the drivers seat penetrated left rib area across chest through right arm and was in the drivers door. 100 metres at night under dim street lights. Ammo was RG....

Kechil

And I assume it stopped him just fine?

Mea Culpa; we thought he had gone OTR but following up at first light he was found over a 5' brick wall. Another Rifleman had hit him with a 7.62mm SLR round whilst he was running...Death had been immediate.

Kechil

I think I heard about what sounds like the perfect replacement round once... .280 calibre, thoroughly tested, designed for maximum terminal effect with minimum weight impact upon Tom Atkins CEFO load, a 139gr bullet that can penetrate a tinlid at 600 yards, a well-designed bullpup rifle with controllable full-auto to fire it through and a matching GPMG for ammo commonality. Sounds good, eh - wonder what the Americans will think of it? :D *


Oh, and just an observation - terminal ballistics: the 21st century's greatest pseudoscience.

It's not a .30... just as all pistols needs to be at least a .40...