Thanks for the serious replies. My chum is ex-army, now part historian, he's written a couple of books about first world war. Really interesting stuff, particularly the last post. You don't often get into the nitty gritty of the efficiency of killing, or the bravery required on the battlefield, esp on public forum. I read the link into the study of how a bullet works, had no idea how technical it was.

Hope my original question wasn't too bone! I'll definitely stick to aircraft!

Originally Posted by diplomat

Originally Posted by rickshaw-major

"Anyone know what damage the AK47 does with kevlar?"

It goes straight through it. To stop it you need ballistic plates.

Edited to add - NATO 7.62mm isn't the same as AK 47 - it is more powerful!

Don't you have the time to do the KE and CD equations? Not a lot else for you to do where you are at moment.

Don't need to Dip, did the actual trials at you know where!

BTW it's summer here but p1ssing with rain :D

Originally Posted by Andy_S

Seems to be the case that since the days of the Martini-Henry, calibres have been getting smaller, lighter and (speaking broadly) less lethal.

Do some googling, and check out the survival rates of those shot by the Washington sniper - firing single shots of 5.56 out of an M16 clone. They were well within an hour of a fully-staffed and experienced trauma unit.

Then come back and claim that 5.56 is "less lethal".

Found this;

The 5.56mm does not tumble as advertised. Look at all of the Washington area sniper victims. Head shots produced kills, and the body shots did not. The one child that was shot twice in the torso lived, and the lady that was shot in the back in front of the Michael's craft store also lived.

Look at all of the reports that came out of Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan, and now Iraq. Often 2-3 rounds in the torso are not killing the enemy.

Yes, I know that the round is heavier in the rear, and so if it enters a heavier medium it is supposed to tumble, but what works in theory does not always produce results in real life.

The 7.62mm produces an entry wound that is almost exactly twice that of the 5.56mm, and although it may go straight through, just like the AK round the larger and heavier round will "disturb" more of the tissuse in the body as it passes through. This is why even though an AK round will also over penetrate in CQB it is still more lethal than an M16 round. The 7.62X39mm round at 150grains traveling through the body will damage far more of the surrounding tissue than a 62grain 5.56mm round could ever hope to.

The .308 ammo we currently use is 168grains. Imagine what that could do.

correct me if im wrong i thought we are useing 144 grain in 7.62x51.
ive got some russian 7.62x51 in 168grain thats quite good.

Originally Posted by plugbore295

correct me if im wrong i thought we are useing 144 grain in 7.62x51.ive got some russian 7.62x51 in 168grain thats quite good.

Is the correct answer - 9.33 grammes in real money.

Originally Posted by nigegilb

The 5.56mm does not tumble as advertised. Look at all of the Washington area sniper victims. Head shots produced kills, and the body shots did not. The one child that was shot twice in the torso lived, and the lady that was shot in the back in front of the Michael's craft store also lived.

So what? Individuals shot through the torso with 5.56mm are not just going to stick an elastoplast on the wound and crack on. We don't really need people hit with our ammunition to die, so long as they can't continue fighting for any appreciable period.

To go back to an earlier time.

Delavera survived the Easter Uprising with 5 rounds in his torso. Don't know if they were .303 or pistol rounds though.

Originally Posted by Whet

To go back to an earlier time.

Delavera survived the Easter Uprising with 5 rounds in his torso. Don't know if they were .303 or pistol rounds though.

So did Devalera :D

Originally Posted by rickshaw-major

Originally Posted by Whet

To go back to an earlier time.

Delavera survived the Easter Uprising with 5 rounds in his torso. Don't know if they were .303 or pistol rounds though.

So did Devalera :D

And De Valera. What a coincidence...