ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by chocolate_frog

Worth noting that during War USCG sometimes pop up to provide help. There was a flotilla of USCG Cutters on standby at D-Day to pick up survivors from sunken boats.

USCG cutters were deployed during the Iraq War.

They are an "armed force" and now answer to "Homeland Security".

From their web-site
"The United States Coast Guard is a military, multimission, maritime service within the Department of Homeland Security and one of the nation's five armed services. Its core roles are to protect the public, the environment, and U.S. economic and security interests in any maritime region in which those interests may be at risk, including international waters and America's coasts, ports, and inland waterways. "


Also - from same source;

National Defense: Defend the nation as one of the five U.S. armed services. Enhance regional stability in support of the National Security Strategy, utilizing the Coast Guard’s unique and relevant maritime capabilities.

Originally Posted by parapauk

Originally Posted by chocolate_frog

Originally Posted by Yokel

Are you suggesting every port should have a small harbour patrol vessel or two to ride shotgun? Something like the Gibraltar Squadron?

Why not? A couple of patrol boats and RIBs in every port... a bit like the RNLI.

Make them RNVR or similar, with a few RN types. They could also encompass the pilots, etc.

And how are you going to stop 10,000 tons worth of tanker with blocks of plastic explosive set to blow the thing up with only a couple of speed boats with GPMG strapped to the front?

A couple of Spearfish on an MTB type vessel would severely ruin their day!

Originally Posted by MikeMcc

Originally Posted by parapauk

Originally Posted by chocolate_frog

Originally Posted by Yokel

Are you suggesting every port should have a small harbour patrol vessel or two to ride shotgun? Something like the Gibraltar Squadron?

Why not? A couple of patrol boats and RIBs in every port... a bit like the RNLI.

Make them RNVR or similar, with a few RN types. They could also encompass the pilots, etc.

And how are you going to stop 10,000 tons worth of tanker with blocks of plastic explosive set to blow the thing up with only a couple of speed boats with GPMG strapped to the front?

A couple of Spearfish on an MTB type vessel would severely ruin their day!

:D :D :D :D :D

At the risk of beginning to sound like a repetitive pentulent little child:

I want my little fast boats back!!

Just a few thoughts on the defensive measures being rolled out here.

Most are response focused as opposed to threat focused and the response mostly is to an apocalyptic 1 in 1 million LNG tanker steaming up the thames. It is possible, but seems to be more in the realms of US style paranoia than anything else (had a great chat with an american driller earlier in the yearwho was convinced there was a dirty bomb second wave attack planned for after sep 11. He didn't like the logic that if they had a dirty bomb, they would probably have used it first for maximum effect)
The strategic ability of terrorists groups to coordinate and do international/large scale spectaculars without state support is limited.

Without good project management, terrorists end up being their own worst enemy. Look at the the Aum Shinrikyo cult, 60,000 members at peak, a possible $1Bn in funds and high skilled graduates in their labs. (some joined the cult because the labs were better than at Uni!).
In their 17 chem and bio attacks on a dense urban population in japan over a number of years, they killed less than 30 folks despite having resources available to kill thousands.

Now this isn't a justification for the reduced level of capability the UK currently has, but its more about clear thinking.
As opposed to putting in security measures for the unlikely/improbable and getting focused on types and styles of ships/marine craft to protect the UK, lets have a bit more of a fundamental discussion on what constitutes Defence for the UK as a nation.
At the moment there seems to be a law enforcement lead on maritime security, lots of little boats and electronic tracking. Is naval led or maritime defence as aconcept defunct?

What do we want? safe shores? safe borders? and how does that integrate with being part of the EU? can we reasonably expect someone in landlocked luxemburg to appreciate the coastal challenges the UK as an island has?

This is a really good discussion, with some really good points being made.

For me it fundamentally comes back to three issues:

Threat
Risk
Cost

The MPs were talking about maritime terrorism. That's not the same as smuggling (drugs/people) which are criminal activities countered by SOCA, UK Border Force, the police etc.

The threat to the UK from maritime terrorism clearly exists (suicide boats, terrorist attack from the sea a la Mumbai).

Determining the level of risk, however, is key. And that's what intelligence is for.

If the risk is high then potentially it justifies the expense of procuring and deploying new inshore craft to provide protection around our coastline. The expense would be substantial (boats, kit, matelots- we haven't got enough for the ships we have...).

This would, ironically, reflect the approach being taken to counter drugs and people smuggling- disrupting networks and routes away from the UK. It makes much more sense for the RN to act to reduce the flow of drugs into the country by making big seizures in the Caribbean with a frigate deployed there, than to fund a large number of small boats that might manage to make a few smaller seizures just off our coast.

As it is I suspect the level of risk is insufficient to justify the recreation of coastal forces. (Which is a shame.)

Originally Posted by Majorpain

Originally Posted by parapauk

Originally Posted by chocolate_frog

Originally Posted by Yokel

Are you suggesting every port should have a small harbour patrol vessel or two to ride shotgun? Something like the Gibraltar Squadron?

Why not? A couple of patrol boats and RIBs in every port... a bit like the RNLI.

Make them RNVR or similar, with a few RN types. They could also encompass the pilots, etc.

And how are you going to stop 10,000 tons worth of tanker with blocks of plastic explosive set to blow the thing up with only a couple of speed boats with GPMG strapped to the front?

2000lb bomb + Tornado Gr 4?

Only if they know about the threat in advance.

One of the drawbacks of being an island nation unfortunately.

The Krauts managed to shell the UK mainland during WW1 when Britannia still ruled the waves...

We used to have the RNXS - Royal Naval Auxillary Service, with a series of ops rooms around the UK at naval bases and ports. In fact there was quite a infrastructure what with the CoastGuard, RNR, RNXS and even the old ROC. Shame it all got shit canned - cost peanuts to run.