It is interesting that a democratically elected government, with an overall majority, doesn't need to worry about either consensus or opposition. Mikhail Bakunin, the noted Russian anarchist and former Imperial Guards officer, wrote "If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself..."

I think we are seeing this phenomenon playing out in front of us now.

On the Fred the Shred pension, with reference to the debate started by this article, did anyone hear Harriet Harmon?

The gist was that his pension would not stand, because the PM has said so. What was worrying was the bit where she said that removal of his pension might not be possible in a court of law, but that the court of public opinion would ensure it, and that is where the government comes in.

So the government can overrride the law if "public opinion" disagrees with the protection it provides? I hold no brief for this bloke, but if it can happen to him, it can happen to any of us.

ARRSE - just seen that somebody has done a seperate strand on HH's interview - sorry, folks!

Originally Posted by Manninagh

On the Fred the Shred pension, with reference to the debate started by this article, did anyone hear Harriet Harmon?

The gist was that his pension would not stand, because the PM has said so. What was worrying was the bit where she said that removal of his pension might not be possible in a court of law, but that the court of public opinion would ensure it, and that is where the government comes in.

So the government can overrride the law if "public opinion" disagrees with the protection it provides? I hold no brief for this bloke, but if it can happen to him, it can happen to any of us.

I will second that. As I have said on another thread do not be surprised if Fred the Shred becomes somthing of a Martyr in the next few months - this case could be what finally does for the Govt.

Harriet Harmon's delusions are quite staggering. Even more staggering is the thought that Fred might become a bit of a folk hero :o

Originally Posted by Cuddles

It is interesting that a democratically elected government, with an overall majority, doesn't need to worry about either consensus or opposition. Mikhail Bakunin, the noted Russian anarchist and former Imperial Guards officer, wrote "If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself..."

I think we are seeing this phenomenon playing out in front of us now.

Agreed - same thing happened to the Tories after too long in the pulpit.

Worrying, too, that the 'majority' held by these creeps, is one counted only in terms of parliamentary seats, rather than in terms of adults in the country as a whole: the turnout at the elections which have put and kept these tw@ts in power, has been paltry: lowest since 1918 at the last one, IIRC.

Well, if you don't vote, you're not entitled to grizzle.

There are way, way too many people in this country who can't be arrsed.

Originally Posted by FARMBOY

I notice that Jabba the Prescott has been banging on this lunch time about the banks and has said that the Govt should just take the Pension away from that RBS dude.

Now much as I think that the RBS pension is excessive what winds me up more is Prescott's mindset - he thinks the Govt can just take someone's pension away without any thought for the precedent that this might set. Nothing is ever that simple, unless you want to be totalitarian.

Well said, I agree wholeheartedly.

I was also struck by the hypocrisy of all this: The government themselves signed off (in part) on this obscene pension and now they want to take it away. And they want to take it away despite the fact that they have no legal right to do so, having signed off on it. No problem, they'll just change the law retroactively to suit.

Originally Posted by FARMBOY

Never mind we have to have an election in just over a year.

Roll on the "quite summer"

I wish I could believe that this will make much difference.

It might finally result in the ID card being scrapped, though, as long as the Conservatives live up to their promises.

Originally Posted by FARMBOY

I felt the usual angst about having to move the car etc. In fact there were no dramas - a reasonable explanation of what I was doing = no ticket. As I say a silly example but I think a metaphor for how we now live in the UK and how we are now forced to think about everything we do and movement we make, we now always seem to incur the wrath of some restriction/permissions. That is the sort of tyranny they got rid of in Poland in 1990.

Indeed. This is what people in East Germany and the Soviet Union suffered.

And now we have it here, courtesy of NuLabour.

Originally Posted by Bugsy

What I found really chilling in that most telling article was this:

It is inconceivable to me that a waking nation in the full consciousness of its freedom would have allowed its government to pass such laws as the Protection from Harassment Act (1997), the Crime and Disorder Act (199, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (2000), the Terrorism Act (2000), the Criminal Justice and Police Act (2001), the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act (2001), the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Extension Act (2002), the Criminal Justice Act (2003), the Extradition Act (2003), the Anti-Social Behaviour Act (2003), the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act (2004), the Civil Contingencies Act (2004), the Prevention of Terrorism Act (2005), the Inquiries Act (2005), the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act (2005), not to mention a host of pending legislation such as the Identity Cards Bill, the Coroners and Justice Bill, and the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill.

All introduced by Phony Tony and his repellant and corrupt covy of crooks.

It seems to me that the Blair/Brown/NuLabour regime has discovered that all it has to do is ignore people's complaints and, after a little while, the electorage just forget. The powers that be have discovered that by pressing on and ignoring dissent they can get away with pretty much anything (especially if the full implementation ot effects of implementation are delayed such that people have time to forget). E.g. RIP Act.

Furthermore, there seem to be many, many people (an increasing number from what I can see) who genuinely believe that they'll be 'safer' with all these losses of liberty. Such naive fools actually trust that authoritarian power won't be misused (at least not against them personally).

Originally Posted by Bugsy

However, I fear there's no going back, since the "Little Hitlers" subsequently endowed with powers they'd only daydreamed about will be manifestly reluctant to go back to actually serving the populace who voted for them and will fight tooth and claw to retain their rancid "authority".

I think you're probably right about this.

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

I think the Tories are keeping their powder dry. This is the longest serving socialist government in our history, the experiment will never be repeated, you couldn't fcuk it up as much with a brewery of whisky and an Afghanistan of smack even if you tried. Labour are destined for the bin of history. I predict - god forgive me for saying it - the LIb Dems will replace them at the next election as the second party.

The down side of course is a generation will need to repay the debt!!!

I hope you're right, I really do. But I have lost faith in the British people -- I don't think their memory is long enough.

And too many of them actually like what the Blair/Brown/NuLabour regime is doing.

Originally Posted by FARMBOY

Originally Posted by Manninagh

On the Fred the Shred pension
[...]
I hold no brief for this bloke, but if it can happen to him, it can happen to any of us.

[...]

Harriet Harmon's delusions are quite staggering. Even more staggering is the thought that Fred might become a bit of a folk hero :o

I too agree with Manningagh but what really worries me is that the British people may have become so infected by and inured to the Blair/Brown/NuLabour mindset that they may be taken in by the 'emotional' content of Harmon's shockingly totalitarian comments. We'll see how this pans out.

Originally Posted by King_of_the_Burpas

It's not just the throbbers who run the country are to blame. We are too.

The Romans used 'bread and circuses' to keep the plebs in order and the modern political elite can do much the same today; the circus in this case being the jibbering torrent of celebrity driven shiite that is all that most of us Brits care about any more.

They can do what they like in Westminster, just so long as we can keep reading about 'tragic' Jade or the size of Jordan's knockers.

My thoughts entirely King, very well put.