Thread: Most eloquent rant ever on loss of civil liberties

At least Fred has a long career in banking to justify his pension. (OK we could argue about the size, and that is fairly obscene.) MPs get a non-contributory, generous pension even if they only serve one term in a job which is by nature fixed length.

As Ord_Sgt says, the newspaper furore over this is just spin to cover lots of stuff the government would like buried. For example, why they only bought 'B' shares with taxpayers' money, why they didn't nationalise the banks properly, or sooner? Why Local Authority bosses are getting bigger and bigger salaries and 'options', and of course the erosion of civil liberties, as outlined above and here:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/...1.html#2459851

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Originally Posted by smartascarrots

Originally Posted by FARMBOY

What a chilling piece of prose. I agree (sadly) with mutch of what Pullman says.

We have blundered into a being a semi democratic state - this week I was back with my family in Poland and I realised just how pervasive New Liarbour have been in terms of changing my own mindset. Example - silly but relevant - Parking - I parked outside a chemist and saw a warden type person - I felt the usual angst about having to move the car etc. In fact there were no dramas - a reasonable explanation of what I was doing = no ticket. As I say a silly example but I think a metaphor for how we now live in the UK and how we are now forced to think about everything we do and movement we make, we now always seem to incur the wrath of some restriction/permissions. That is the sort of tyranny they got rid of in Poland in 1990.

Who would have thought that I would experience more simple freedom in Poland than in the UK - I never would have thought that in my lifetime.

We have allowed the Govt to control and systemise our lives too much. The systems can be dismantled that part is easy - but what do we do about the generation of "busy bodies" (informants) New Liarbour have created that exist right through the public sector - they will want to hang onto their jobs/power. These Civil servants even believe that they are doing the right thing.

This will be the real challenge for the Tories. If they really want to take it on.

I receive a similar sensation in provincial China and that depresses me. For all the talk of human rights, it seems that we're not really free to go about our lawful occasions without fear of authority in the UK anymore.

That seems like a fairly good workaday definition of 'totalitarianism' to me.

Absolutely 'Carrots. The thing about living under communism was (certainly in Poland) about engendering a state of mind...can i do this...i can't do this....that man will challenge me if I park here, get involved or question the authority of etc. That is happening in the UK and it happens in increments both personally and publically. I believe we are at a cross roads regarding "Freedom" in the UK. In many ways we are worse off than Poalnd was in 1990 because it was very clear how and why the totalitarian structure was in place and without Soviet backing much of the regime could be identified and pulled quite quickly. In the UK - where do we start?

The Tories should not just be looking to win the next election they should be looking to dismantle the infrastructure that is beating ordinary decent people down, a very long, hard and expensive road.

I think I read somewhere today that the Lib/Dem boss has pledged to repeal certain parts of ZANU NuLiarbour legislation resulting in the loss of civil liberties. Trouble is, he is not to form a government.

Come on Tories, get your pledge in too! Mean it though, mean it!

Huge trouble is, with brains at the top of the Labour pile like Prescott's, and at the bottom of the Labour pile concerned only with hand-outs, lager and fags, getting rid of the frightful mob.

Stand-by for an announcement 'postponing' the next general election 'in the best interests of the nation'. I truly believe it might happen.

Originally Posted by smartascarrots

Originally Posted by FARMBOY

What a chilling piece of prose. I agree (sadly) with mutch of what Pullman says.

We have blundered into a being a semi democratic state - this week I was back with my family in Poland and I realised just how pervasive New Liarbour have been in terms of changing my own mindset. Example - silly but relevant - Parking - I parked outside a chemist and saw a warden type person - I felt the usual angst about having to move the car etc. In fact there were no dramas - a reasonable explanation of what I was doing = no ticket. As I say a silly example but I think a metaphor for how we now live in the UK and how we are now forced to think about everything we do and movement we make, we now always seem to incur the wrath of some restriction/permissions. That is the sort of tyranny they got rid of in Poland in 1990.

Who would have thought that I would experience more simple freedom in Poland than in the UK - I never would have thought that in my lifetime.

We have allowed the Govt to control and systemise our lives too much. The systems can be dismantled that part is easy - but what do we do about the generation of "busy bodies" (informants) New Liarbour have created that exist right through the public sector - they will want to hang onto their jobs/power. These Civil servants even believe that they are doing the right thing.

This will be the real challenge for the Tories. If they really want to take it on.

I receive a similar sensation in provincial China and that depresses me. For all the talk of human rights, it seems that we're not really free to go about our lawful occasions without fear of authority in the UK anymore.

Everyday business like?

the link to the article doesnt seem to work - has the article been pulled

its a conspiracy!.... :P

Originally Posted by parapauk

Everyday business like?

Yep. Because, increasingly, the State is taking it upon itself to prescribe what 'everyday business' actually is.

Pull up a sandbag, but when I was a kid each and every adult in our village just assumed as a matter of course that part of their 'everyday business' was challenging misbehaving kids and unruly adults. Can you honestly say that's the case today? Quite apart from the high likelihood of a kicking, the Forces of Law and What's-that-old-fashioned-concept-again don't take kindly to people usurping their role, even when they aren't there to do it themselves.

Do you not think it in the slightest bit odd that someone raised in the liberal-democratic tradition with all the parcel of assumptions and preferences that entails can feel that the police in a totalitarian dictatorship are more supportive of their basic rights than are the ones at home? I wouldn't trust the Jing Cha to run a complex investigation, but no matter where I go - including desperately poor areas where the PLA was still fighting running battles with bandit clans into the '70s - I feel safe from robbery and violence, and so does everyone else. I wish I could say the same about the UK.

The RBS pension thing - ffs. cyclops is 'very angry' and will do 'everything' to make sure he doesnt get it.

like what?? it was YOU and YOUR cronies that encouraged the banks to behave the way they did in the first place, and while it looked like everything was going swimmingly you were quite happy to make out it was all down to your inspired stewardship of the economy. the minute it goes tits up, you try and claim it was all the fault of those nasty men in the US and nothing to do with you.

and now, with Jackboot Jacqui getting caught with not only her hand but both arms in the till, and STILL insisting everything she did was above board, you want to take this guys pension off him? fair enough, I dont agree with him getting a payoff either, but lets look at two things -

YOU were daft enough to have your ministers sign off on the deal (you knew none of this was coming of course - yeah, yeah. we believe you) giving him cash when everything was not far off hitting the wall.

your government is one of the sleaziest, most corrupt, grabbing bunch of hypocrites going. do you honestly think fred is doing anything but following the example his political masters have set?

I think the Tories are keeping their powder dry. This is the longest serving socialist government in our history, the experiment will never be repeated, you couldn't fcuk it up as much with a brewery of whisky and an Afghanistan of smack even if you tried. Labour are destined for the bin of history. I predict - god forgive me for saying it - the LIb Dems will replace them at the next election as the second party.

The down side of course is a generation will need to repay the debt!!!

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

I think the Tories are keeping their powder dry. This is the longest serving socialist government in our history, the experiment will never be repeated, you couldn't fcuk it up as much with a brewery of whisky and an Afghanistan of smack even if you tried. Labour are destined for the bin of history. I predict - god forgive me for saying it - the LIb Dems will replace them at the next election as the second party.

The down side of course is a generation will need to repay the debt!!!

That'll cost you a fine on the Ypres tour - a brewery of whisky indeed! It is of cours e adist ........

Ah fuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggg iiiiiitttttttttttt :D

Originally Posted by smartascarrots

Originally Posted by parapauk

Everyday business like?

Yep. Because, increasingly, the State is taking it upon itself to prescribe what 'everyday business' actually is.

Pull up a sandbag, but when I was a kid each and every adult in our village just assumed as a matter of course that part of their 'everyday business' was challenging misbehaving kids and unruly adults. Can you honestly say that's the case today? Quite apart from the high likelihood of a kicking, the Forces of Law and What's-that-old-fashioned-concept-again don't take kindly to people usurping their role, even when they aren't there to do it themselves.

Do you not think it in the slightest bit odd that someone raised in the liberal-democratic tradition with all the parcel of assumptions and preferences that entails can feel that the police in a totalitarian dictatorship are more supportive of their basic rights than are the ones at home? I wouldn't trust the Jing Cha to run a complex investigation, but no matter where I go - including desperately poor areas where the PLA was still fighting running battles with bandit clans into the '70s - I feel safe from robbery and violence, and so does everyone else. I wish I could say the same about the UK.

If you try to tell someone off and they give you a kicking then there is nothing any civil liberty will do to help you in that moment in time.

Much of China I suspect (never been) is still based around a traditional structure. Women look after the family, all the men work at the local steel mill, children are expected to look after the parents. That's great for social order but has its downside in economic and social terms. Women are stuck at home, a single monolithic employer is likely to wreck the local areas when it closes (see UK mining towns) and children are wedded to looking after parents that are likely to live until there children are in their 60s and have their lives ruined.

If you want to move on from that there is a price to pay and that is the losening of the social bonds. The downside is that both families and communities fracture and there is less of a united effort to control the undesirables. The trouble with that is that the vulnerable and innocent also have no one to protect them. The natural instinct of the law is to go after those who can't protect themselves. To counter that you need to enforce a rigid system of rights that are a pain in the arrse when dealing with the guity. I've no desire to go back to the days when the plods used to see giving a kicking to the local (insert person/group without protection and vaugly associated with the offence in question here) as the answer.

I'm sure the Chinese police are good at protecting your rights, but just be greatful you're not on the wrong end of the social structure that allows it, or on the list of the local 'usual suspects'.

linky no worky

the search on the article on timesonline doesnt work either.

conspiracy!

A very well-written and perceptive article. "They" are looking to reintroduce various nefarious clauses into the Coroners and Justice Bill, such as secret inquests, which were kicked out at earlier stages. "They" won't be happy until every aspect of our lives is under scrutiny, and we can be investigated and punished according to "their" subjective opinion rather than clearly defined rights.

We're approaching a tipping point. We may have passed it, with the Damian Green affair. The question is this: will the democratic process intervene before the point of no return is reached? I hope it will and I think the Tories will roll back many of these iniquitous laws - David Davis is a constant advocate of liberties and the Tories won't survive their first party conference if they don't keep the silent and toiling middle classes happy.

In the absence of the above there are two main flashpoints - the election and ID cards. It is conceivable, albeit remote, that "they" could suspend the election or call for some sort of national unity government. If that ever happened (unlikely but "they" will have thought of it) then we'll see mass protests and a (mostly) peaceful overthrow of the illegitimate government. If "they" somehow win the election (without rigging it) then the next battleground would be ID cards although I can't see how "they"could be re-elected unless there was some sort of mass conversion to Neu Arbeit and all its values (drugging the water supply?)

I was planning on attending the Glasgow liberty convention, but work got in the way and my company are making me go to the rugby and drink alcohol with clients tomorrow. There will be plenty more outlets for opposition as the months pass....

Originally Posted by hogspawn

linky no worky

the search on the article on timesonline doesnt work either.

conspiracy!

Try Here.

strange site but cheers!

Originally Posted by parapauk

If you try to tell someone off and they give you a kicking then there is nothing any civil liberty will do to help you in that moment in time.

That’s rather missing the point. If someone attempts to give out a kicking for being told off in the PRC, the teller-off will be perfectly entitled to respond in kind and should they win out the legal system will be on their side 100%. The loser will have brought it on themselves in official eyes for having started the fight. How many times have their British counterparts been branded ‘vigilantes’ and prosecuted?

Originally Posted by parapauk

Much of China I suspect (never been) is still based around a traditional structure. Women look after the family, all the men work at the local steel mill, children are expected to look after the parents. That's great for social order but has its downside in economic and social terms. Women are stuck at home, a single monolithic employer is likely to wreck the local areas when it closes (see UK mining towns) and children are wedded to looking after parents that are likely to live until there children are in their 60s and have their lives ruined.

That’s not the case at all, I’m afraid, but not relevant to the substance of this thread. PM to follow.

Originally Posted by parapauk

If you want to move on from that there is a price to pay and that is the losening of the social bonds. The downside is that both families and communities fracture and there is less of a united effort to control the undesirables.

None of which addresses the point of the UKs official effort being directed at monitoring and controlling their own population in a manner traditionally associated with totalitarian regimes.

Originally Posted by parapauk

The trouble with that is that the vulnerable and innocent also have no one to protect them. The natural instinct of the law is to go after those who can't protect themselves. To counter that you need to enforce a rigid system of rights that are a pain in the arrse when dealing with the guity.

And that’s where we’re going wrong here in the UK. The habitual criminals can protect themselves from much official attention simply by being much harder to prosecute than ordinary folk who make a one-off slip.

Originally Posted by parapauk

I'm sure the Chinese police are good at protecting your rights, but just be greatful you're not on the wrong end of the social structure that allows it...

My in-law are “on the wrong end of the social structure� if you want to call it that and I have a good many friends and colleagues in the PRC. If they’re united in one criticism of the west it’s that our legal system has no respect for the victim. I find it increasingly hard to defend it against that charge.