Same old argument as on a similar thread.

Civil servants may draft laws, they may give advice to politicians, they may agree or disagree with them, they may be bad, good or indifferent in the way they do all this but it is the politicians who make the decisions and produce the laws. They cannot then blame the civil servants for giving them bad advice - they are quite free to ignore CS advice and often do.

It is a long and honourable precedant that politicians and ministers refrain from blaming civil servants when they or their departments get things wrong. It is called personal responsibility - a concept you don't seem familiar with Sven.

Originally Posted by maxi_77

Originally Posted by Sven

Maxi - if it is proven that rules are being manipulated then they should be changed. But how do you prove that they have been manipulated?

You seem to have been taking lessons in prevarication dfrom my MP. Never willing to actually answer the question. In principle should we condone those holding the highest offices in the land adapting, bending twisting or what ever word makes you happy, the rules to their own personal benefit. This is a purely theoretical question on what standards you want to see from government ministers, not about what any individual has or has not done. What sort of example if any should minister set for us.

If the rules are bent, they should be changed. Just as I have said - but how do you prove their bending. Tell me how and if I agree I'll say so.

Originally Posted by Sven

Originally Posted by right-grumpy

Originally Posted by Sven

Maxi - if it is proven that rules are being manipulated then they should be changed. But how do you prove that they have been manipulated?

Just as one example;
How much did the RH Twot pay his son. Caught bang to rights. How much did he have to pay back.

Oh and then carry on normal jogging (robbing)

Even when caught they can limbo under a snakes belly

How is that manipulating and not defrauding.

He paid his son to do work, work they did not carry out.

Either way it is criminal, he should have been made to pay the lot back and been dismissed as an MP.

Originally Posted by Herrumph

Same old argument as on a similar thread.

Civil servants may draft laws, they may give advice to politicians, they may agree or disagree with them, they may be bad, good or indifferent in the way they do all this but it is the politicians who make the decisions and produce the laws. They cannot then blame the civil servants for giving them bad advice - they are quite free to ignore CS advice and often do.

It is a long and honourable precedant that politicians and ministers refrain from blaming civil servants when they or their departments get things wrong. It is called personal responsibility - a concept you don't seem familiar with Sven.

I started this thread to take indivual ministers out of the frame, to make life easier for PTP who seemed to go into overlad yesterday.

One thing which has happened over similar problems with expenses for MSPs, was that we now have their expenses published every month on the parliamentary web site for all to sea, since this happened there has been much less controversy, openess seems to work, but of course Gorbals Mick is hell bent on ensuring such clarity does not happen in Westminster before he retires. It has also been established up here that the opinions on the legality of a claim by parliamentary officers does not absolve the MSP if the advice is later found to be incorrect. Here it is the MSPs responsibilty to ensure that their declarations are correct, errors are their responsibility absolutely.

Originally Posted by Sven

If the rules are bent, they should be changed.

Wrong. The individual who is bending them - who has been placed in a position of trust by the electorate - should be dismissed.

Originally Posted by right-grumpy

Originally Posted by Sven

Originally Posted by right-grumpy

Originally Posted by Sven

Maxi - if it is proven that rules are being manipulated then they should be changed. But how do you prove that they have been manipulated?

Just as one example;
How much did the RH Twot pay his son. Caught bang to rights. How much did he have to pay back.

Oh and then carry on normal jogging (robbing)

Even when caught they can limbo under a snakes belly

How is that manipulating and not defrauding.

He paid his son to do work, work they did not carry out.

Either way it is criminal, he should have been made to pay the lot back and been dismissed as an MP.

You are right.

Originally Posted by gary-pompadour

Come on guys - their on their way out and nicking the silverware before they go - wheres your sense of compassion??

:D

You honestly think the greed is only exhibited by members of the current party in power? Did you miss Conway, Ashcroft, Major, Sassoon, Maples, Owen and all the other troughers?

Originally Posted by Herrumph

Same old argument as on a similar thread.

Civil servants may draft laws, they may give advice to politicians, they may agree or disagree with them, they may be bad, good or indifferent in the way they do all this but it is the politicians who make the decisions and produce the laws. They cannot then blame the civil servants for giving them bad advice - they are quite free to ignore CS advice and often do.

It is a long and honourable precedant that politicians and ministers refrain from blaming civil servants when they or their departments get things wrong. It is called personal responsibility - a concept you don't seem familiar with Sven.

Gosh - I've never heard that before, got it from Yes Minister did you?

Originally Posted by Grownup_Rafbrat

Originally Posted by gary-pompadour

Come on guys - their on their way out and nicking the silverware before they go - wheres your sense of compassion??

:D

You honestly think the greed is only exhibited by members of the current party in power? Did you miss Conway, Ashcroft, Major, Sassoon, Maples, Owen and all the other troughers?

Whilst I would agree that there is a fair ammount of stable cleansing to be done, perhaps we should though start with those at the top, government ministers, get them sorted and it will be a lot easier to clean up the rest.

Originally Posted by hackle

Ministerial Code: A Code of Ethics and Guidance for Ministers (PDF)

Sorry, havent found a text version of the latest (2007) Code which I could cut and paste from.

The Scottish Parliament and Wales and NI Assemblies have their own Ministerial Codes.

Fair enough Hackle, I bow to your superior knowledge on this (and other subjects).
However, Who watches over them?
Or to put it another way
"Who watches the watchers?"

How can any of them, realistically, be expected to not flout the rules , when all they have to do when caught, is change them to suit (and retrospectively too no doubt).

They all want their snout in the trough, but none of them wants to get seen to be doing so. It's just another symptom of the Nanny state/Cradle to grave mentality we are currently succombing to in this festered Isle.