Cabbage_man
Old Salt
Which form of Irish Republicanism? North or south? They are now quite different.
Lads. Firstly in the UK (incl NI) we never learn about Irish history. So we do not (most of us due to the educational system) really have a good understanding of the âtroublesâ (slight understatement in my view) in NI, and Irish nationalism in general. Iâm still surprised by people, both young and old that still think the Rep of Ireland is still part of the UK!
Iâm English so see it all as an outsider. I used to be mystified about Irish nationalism and why they were causing all the trouble during Op Banner etc. Years ago I started to research deeply into Irish history as a means of understanding what it was that motivated them. This interest was further increased due to the fact I now sped a fair share of my year in the Irish Republic with work and hear all the old stories about the 'black and tans' etc. I think I have an unbiased and decent understanding of Irish nationalism in the C20th which I would like to share.
As has been mentioned by OneTap, Ireland was promised Home Rule before the war. This was set back by Parliament until Germany was defeated. The Irish Volunteers (a quasi military body consisting of over 150,000 men) were urged by their nationalist leader, Redmond MP, to enlist in the British Army, âfight for little Belgiumâ, win the war, and in so doing win Home Rule for Ireland (even at this stage it was likely that the 6 northern counties of NI would be excluded as they had raised their of volunteer force, the UVF to resist it). Something like (open to correction on precise figure) 250,000 southern Irish nationalist Catholics signed up to fight (over 70,000 paying the ultimate sacrifice). What is often forgotten by historians in the UK and unionists in NI is that the vast majority of these men did so for Ireland and the promise of home rule, and not for âKing and Countryâ! Home Rule was seen as a stepping stone by its supporters in Ireland to complete independence from Britain. A reason the unionist were determined to fight it so aggressively. âUlster will fight, and Ulster will be right!â Edward Carson I think.
Meanwhile, a more determined body of nationalist wanted full independence, a republic. These man believed in the old Irish sayingâ Englandâs difficulty is Ireland opportunityâ and struck a blow for independence. The 1916 Rising was meant to have taken place across the entire country, however one of the leaders Eoin McNeill cancelled it at the last minute, resulting in Dublin, and one or two small pockets elsewhere taking military action against the crown forces. The result of the rising after six days of battle and hundreds of losses, and following the execution of the leaders, was widespread support of the nationalist movement and a hardening of attitudes for the complete independence of Ireland. Home Rule would now no longer do.
As has been pointed out, following the 1918 elections a new party, Sinn Fein (NOT to be confused by the present shower of sh*t, just use same name) won an over whelming majority of the vote. They decided to abstain from the Westminster Parliament, and set up their own in Dublin. The vast majority of Irish (what is now the Rep) were voting for a party that ran on an Independence ticket. They won. We, the British, should have recognised. However we did not. The Dublin govt, or Dail (democratically elected in Westminster elections), then authorised their armed volunteers, now called the Irish Republican Army (IRA) to take military action. I must point out this âIRAâ was later to become the Free State Army and then the Irish Army we have today. The PIRA,CIRA,OIRA,RIRA, etc etc borrowed the name due to the support of the original or âold IRAâ. This lead to the War of Independence, which was vicious. To call these men terrorists, which we often do in the UK, is in my opinion wrong. They had a political mandate, (the UK Gov was ignoring Irish demands) and they fought the only way they could with limited arms they had. We would have fought the very same way had Gerry invaded and over run us. Guerrilla tactics. Itâs not pleasant stuff, but effective.
The 26 counties became the Free State after this conflict. It was more than the origional version of Home Rule we hand offered before the war. They could raise taxes, raise an Army, police force, British forces left in full (excl 3 âTreaty Portsâ which we left in 1937/ etc. It laid the foundations for complete independence which came in all but name in 1937, and officially in 1949 when Ireland (RoI) left the Commonwealth.
A Civil War did erupt after the 1919-1921 War of Independence. This was fought by the new pro Treaty Free State Army (ex IRA) and the Anti Treaty IRA, who wanted to fight on to include NI in the treaty despite unionist opposition. It was over by 1923.
It must be understood here, that the IRA of the 40âs, 50âs and then the PIRA of more recent times, are not the same as the IRA of the 1918-1922 period.
Finally my personal view. Did Irish Republicans achieve anything?
Irish Republicans in the guise of 1918-22 certainly did. They fought an effective campaign against us and achieved independence for 26 out of the 32 counties in Ireland. I do not think the Home Rule, that was promised would have led to later Irish independence through politics. Here is why. We would have been allowed station troops in Ireland post war. Home Rule allowed for this. Certainly the treaty ports at Cork and elsewhere. Would have been very handy for the Atlantic convoys etc. By the time WW2 came along our presence in Ireland would have made here a target and dragged her into the war. Post WW2, the Cold War would have likely seen Irelandâs geographic location utilised by NATO. Shannon airport and Lough Swilly would have been strategically important and useful resources for planes, and subs. This would have made it very difficult for the Irish to achieve independence, which after all was their right (not talking about NI here!).
NI on the other hand it a different kettle of fish. The PIRA was born out of the Civil Rights movement. Catholics AT THE TIME were treated as second class citizens, did not have the voting power of Protestants, nor the educational or job opportunities. This was an explosive mixture and a shameful episode in unionist leadership. Coupled with high unemployment, poverty, and the catholic desire to join the RoI, we all know what happened.
In NIâs case itâs my opinion that nationalist/republicans could have achieved what they have now (the NI Assembly) without the terrorist and murderous campaign they waged. I do not think violent Irish Republicans over the last 40 years was worthwhile. Too many civilians and squaddies were butchered. The Provoâs could not and cannot justify their campaign. They never had a political mandate by the population and the majority of the pop on NI (57%) are unionist. How can you force them into something against their will? Also their tactics, bombs on civi street, pubs etc were vile acts of utter terrorism, and impossible to justify from a moral perspective.
Hope this was informative or made some sense. Did not get a wink last night
Lads. Firstly in the UK (incl NI) we never learn about Irish history. So we do not (most of us due to the educational system) really have a good understanding of the âtroublesâ (slight understatement in my view) in NI, and Irish nationalism in general. Iâm still surprised by people, both young and old that still think the Rep of Ireland is still part of the UK!
Iâm English so see it all as an outsider. I used to be mystified about Irish nationalism and why they were causing all the trouble during Op Banner etc. Years ago I started to research deeply into Irish history as a means of understanding what it was that motivated them. This interest was further increased due to the fact I now sped a fair share of my year in the Irish Republic with work and hear all the old stories about the 'black and tans' etc. I think I have an unbiased and decent understanding of Irish nationalism in the C20th which I would like to share.
As has been mentioned by OneTap, Ireland was promised Home Rule before the war. This was set back by Parliament until Germany was defeated. The Irish Volunteers (a quasi military body consisting of over 150,000 men) were urged by their nationalist leader, Redmond MP, to enlist in the British Army, âfight for little Belgiumâ, win the war, and in so doing win Home Rule for Ireland (even at this stage it was likely that the 6 northern counties of NI would be excluded as they had raised their of volunteer force, the UVF to resist it). Something like (open to correction on precise figure) 250,000 southern Irish nationalist Catholics signed up to fight (over 70,000 paying the ultimate sacrifice). What is often forgotten by historians in the UK and unionists in NI is that the vast majority of these men did so for Ireland and the promise of home rule, and not for âKing and Countryâ! Home Rule was seen as a stepping stone by its supporters in Ireland to complete independence from Britain. A reason the unionist were determined to fight it so aggressively. âUlster will fight, and Ulster will be right!â Edward Carson I think.
Meanwhile, a more determined body of nationalist wanted full independence, a republic. These man believed in the old Irish sayingâ Englandâs difficulty is Ireland opportunityâ and struck a blow for independence. The 1916 Rising was meant to have taken place across the entire country, however one of the leaders Eoin McNeill cancelled it at the last minute, resulting in Dublin, and one or two small pockets elsewhere taking military action against the crown forces. The result of the rising after six days of battle and hundreds of losses, and following the execution of the leaders, was widespread support of the nationalist movement and a hardening of attitudes for the complete independence of Ireland. Home Rule would now no longer do.
As has been pointed out, following the 1918 elections a new party, Sinn Fein (NOT to be confused by the present shower of sh*t, just use same name) won an over whelming majority of the vote. They decided to abstain from the Westminster Parliament, and set up their own in Dublin. The vast majority of Irish (what is now the Rep) were voting for a party that ran on an Independence ticket. They won. We, the British, should have recognised. However we did not. The Dublin govt, or Dail (democratically elected in Westminster elections), then authorised their armed volunteers, now called the Irish Republican Army (IRA) to take military action. I must point out this âIRAâ was later to become the Free State Army and then the Irish Army we have today. The PIRA,CIRA,OIRA,RIRA, etc etc borrowed the name due to the support of the original or âold IRAâ. This lead to the War of Independence, which was vicious. To call these men terrorists, which we often do in the UK, is in my opinion wrong. They had a political mandate, (the UK Gov was ignoring Irish demands) and they fought the only way they could with limited arms they had. We would have fought the very same way had Gerry invaded and over run us. Guerrilla tactics. Itâs not pleasant stuff, but effective.
The 26 counties became the Free State after this conflict. It was more than the origional version of Home Rule we hand offered before the war. They could raise taxes, raise an Army, police force, British forces left in full (excl 3 âTreaty Portsâ which we left in 1937/ etc. It laid the foundations for complete independence which came in all but name in 1937, and officially in 1949 when Ireland (RoI) left the Commonwealth.
A Civil War did erupt after the 1919-1921 War of Independence. This was fought by the new pro Treaty Free State Army (ex IRA) and the Anti Treaty IRA, who wanted to fight on to include NI in the treaty despite unionist opposition. It was over by 1923.
It must be understood here, that the IRA of the 40âs, 50âs and then the PIRA of more recent times, are not the same as the IRA of the 1918-1922 period.
Finally my personal view. Did Irish Republicans achieve anything?
Irish Republicans in the guise of 1918-22 certainly did. They fought an effective campaign against us and achieved independence for 26 out of the 32 counties in Ireland. I do not think the Home Rule, that was promised would have led to later Irish independence through politics. Here is why. We would have been allowed station troops in Ireland post war. Home Rule allowed for this. Certainly the treaty ports at Cork and elsewhere. Would have been very handy for the Atlantic convoys etc. By the time WW2 came along our presence in Ireland would have made here a target and dragged her into the war. Post WW2, the Cold War would have likely seen Irelandâs geographic location utilised by NATO. Shannon airport and Lough Swilly would have been strategically important and useful resources for planes, and subs. This would have made it very difficult for the Irish to achieve independence, which after all was their right (not talking about NI here!).
NI on the other hand it a different kettle of fish. The PIRA was born out of the Civil Rights movement. Catholics AT THE TIME were treated as second class citizens, did not have the voting power of Protestants, nor the educational or job opportunities. This was an explosive mixture and a shameful episode in unionist leadership. Coupled with high unemployment, poverty, and the catholic desire to join the RoI, we all know what happened.
In NIâs case itâs my opinion that nationalist/republicans could have achieved what they have now (the NI Assembly) without the terrorist and murderous campaign they waged. I do not think violent Irish Republicans over the last 40 years was worthwhile. Too many civilians and squaddies were butchered. The Provoâs could not and cannot justify their campaign. They never had a political mandate by the population and the majority of the pop on NI (57%) are unionist. How can you force them into something against their will? Also their tactics, bombs on civi street, pubs etc were vile acts of utter terrorism, and impossible to justify from a moral perspective.
Hope this was informative or made some sense. Did not get a wink last night