Thread: 37mm baton guns / rounds

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

A jacket remains the property of the Crown unless legally sold. Same difference. If you trawl old depots and find a jacket and take it it is still theft by finding.

I have an extensive ammunition collection. It is held on FAC. It has all been purchased. I have no records of MoD bills of sale. Some stuff dates to before the First World War. If for some reason the police decided to call EOD to examine my collection they would have no right to confiscate it without a court order*. That WOULD be theft.

*S52. 1968 Firearms Act (as amended)

I'm not sure what you are getting at S52 appears to be - Forfeiture and disposal of firearms; cancellation of certificate by convicting court.

However, S5 and S46 of the act should be of interest to the barrack room lawyer.

I particularly like S46 Para 2.

(2)A warrant under this section may authorise a constable or civilian officer—.
(a)to enter at any time any premises or place named in the warrant, if necessary by force, and to search the premises or place and every person found there;.
(b)to seize and detain anything which he may find on the premises or place, or on any such person, in respect of which or in connection with which he has reasonable ground for suspecting—.
(i)that an offence relevant for the purposes of this section has been, is being or is about to be committed; or.
(ii)that in connection with a firearm, imitation firearm or ammunition there is a danger to the public safety or to the peace.

And we haven't even started on the Explosives Act or the conditions for Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP).

Originally Posted by No_Duff

Are you a member of ECRA and/or the IAA ?

err... no. Can't even find what IAA is!

Originally Posted by dingerr

I'm not sure what you are getting at S52 appears to be - Forfeiture and disposal of firearms; cancellation of certificate by convicting court.

However, S5 and S46 of the act should be of interest to the barrack room lawyer.

I particularly like S46 Para 2.

(2)A warrant under this section may authorise a constable or civilian officer—.
(a)to enter at any time any premises or place named in the warrant, if necessary by force, and to search the premises or place and every person found there;.
(b)to seize and detain anything which he may find on the premises or place, or on any such person, in respect of which or in connection with which he has reasonable ground for suspecting—.
(i)that an offence relevant for the purposes of this section has been, is being or is about to be committed; or.
(ii)that in connection with a firearm, imitation firearm or ammunition there is a danger to the public safety or to the peace.

And we haven't even started on the Explosives Act or the conditions for Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP).

Yes, he can seize and detain items that he suspects may be the subject of a criminal offence. He can't just keep them forever if no offence is proven. Do go on.

It's the danger to public safety part that allows ammunition (other than that for legally held firearms) and explosives to be removed.

In such instances, of discovery of ammunition and explosives, the Police (with the exception of the Met) do not hold the required expertise or storage for these items, therefore they request EOD assistance under Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) arrangements, as laid down by the Home Secretary.

Once requested, an EOD team will arrive as required and assess the state of items found. Items deemed unsafe, by the operator, will be removed (if safe to do so) and destroyed by explosive demolition. Items deemed safe to move will be recovered to the EOD teams licenced explosive storehouse and either:

(1) Held as Safekeep for the Police pending enquiries.
(2) Removed to an explosive demolition ground and destroyed.
(3) Moved to QinetiQ for disposal.

In all cases, the items are not returned by the EOD team.

You (generic) simply cannot go trawling around the land digging up old items of ordnance, polish them up and stick them on your shelf. Nor can you accept items from someone who has.

Originally Posted by dingerr

(1) Held as Safekeep for the Police pending enquiries.

So what happens if someone had some ammunition and it is removed by EOD for Police enquiries and the Police enquiries show that the ammunition was held legally ?

You can try and claim off the Police for the cost, I expect.

Not once in the last 10 years have I returned ammunition.

I can see that if an item is unsafe it will be destroyed. Let's set that circumstance aside for the moment.

You do seem to be focused on items that people have picked up off ranges. In that case it would be theft by finding in most cases as I understand it so there would be no argument for it to be returned to hte person who held it.

Let us look at some (probably) more common examples.

1)Police come to my house and decide to take all my firearms and ammunition away and charge me with (some firearms offence they believe me to be guilty of)
They decide to ask for EOD support when they see some old rifle calibre ammunition and EOD oblige and take it away, holding it securely pending a court case.
Turns out I'm cleared by the court. All ammunition and firearms are held lawfully and have to be returned.

What grounds would there be for EOD or the police to not return my property?

Case 2)
Police are searching for (missing person, whatever) and find a deactivated mills bomb at Joe Bloggs house. Joe bought it at Christies Auctions.
Police ask EOD to make it safe. It is found to be a dummy/drill/deactivated item.
The police have no reason to believe that it is stolen and Joe Bloggs has committed no other offence.

What right does EOD / Police have to retain Mr. Blogg's property?

I accept that in your experience nothing has been returned but that doesn't mean it would be right in all cases. If the cases you've been involved with have been range pick ups and were live then it's a rather different matter to the sort of examples everyone else is giving here.

Hope you're bearing up.

These might raise an eyebrow!

Originally Posted by randomgary

dingerr your raising some concerns in my head here, ive a cart case from H6 that i brought back! work knows i brought it, i have an FFE cert however i hve no bill of sale from an mod appointed agent!



any ideas where i stand?

As you got it out of theatre you must have got the correct authorisation. A note from SO2 G4 Log (or whatever the title was/is now), and an FFE signed off by an Ammo Tech. Occasional the system changes, but it's always a variation on a theme.

Bottom line is that you are absolutely fine,just don't lose any documentation you have for it.

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

These might raise an eyebrow!

And a sorry shake of the head.

should that not read the system "charges",2 crates for the AT's please!

Originally Posted by br9mp81

should that not read the system "charges",2 crates for the AT's please!

We were lucky on H9 - The ATs were busy as fook out there but still took the time to square a shitload of people with authorisation and certs for cart art and souvenirs; A donation to their fund or a couple of crates was the least we could do.

Originally Posted by CC_TA

We were lucky on H9 - The ATs were busy as fook out there but still took the time to square a shitload of people with authorisation and certs for cart art and souvenirs; A donation to their fund or a couple of crates was the least we could do.

We're not all cunts. Just me

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

Let us look at some (probably) more common examples.

1)Police come to my house and decide to take all my firearms and ammunition away and charge me with (some firearms offence they believe me to be guilty of)
They decide to ask for EOD support when they see some old rifle calibre ammunition and EOD oblige and take it away, holding it securely pending a court case.
Turns out I'm cleared by the court. All ammunition and firearms are held lawfully and have to be returned.

What grounds would there be for EOD or the police to not return my property?

Ammunition is held on safekeep for the prosecution, not the defence. Quite often the Police take no further action and the ammunition is destroyed, by the virtue it is ammunition. You could argue that it's not fair, illegal, blah, blah, blah, but the fact remains that it is not illegal to remove and destroy the ammunition. You could pursue the issue through the courts, but you would be taking on the Police, the Army and the Home Secretary. It would also be a little difficult as to reinforce your case you would require a SME which would be a errr....... Ammo Tech!

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

Case 2)
Police are searching for (missing person, whatever) and find a deactivated mills bomb at Joe Bloggs house. Joe bought it at Christies Auctions.
Police ask EOD to make it safe. It is found to be a dummy/drill/deactivated item.
The police have no reason to believe that it is stolen and Joe Bloggs has committed no other offence.

What right does EOD / Police have to retain Mr. Blogg's property?

An extremely common occurence. I suppose it falls under the safety to the general public clause and also property of the crown. He may have brought it at Christies, but that doesn't make it legal.

You are blending the Police and EOD into one. We simply provide a service to the Police. Look on use as wheel clampers if you wish. We have no powers to enforce the law, nor are we experts on the law itself, so I will never be able to give you chapter and verse.

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

I accept that in your experience nothing has been returned but that doesn't mean it would be right in all cases. If the cases you've been involved with have been range pick ups and were live then it's a rather different matter to the sort of examples everyone else is giving here.

Hope you're bearing up.

Well it does all depend on the law or laws. It appears to me to be very convaluted and certainly does not simply follow the "innocent until proven guilty" malarkey. And I have questioned it itself, just to make sure my arse was covered.

I'm bearing up quite well, thank you for asking.

If you think this is unfair, PM Flying Felix - He destroyed some Arty fuzes in the Master Gunner's (or some other Arty Gurner) office.

Accepted that EOD are acting as contractors for the police.

The main point here is that the police do not have the power to just confiscate and destroy people's property without a court order. We're not in a total police state quite yet. If they do this they are acting outside the law. I'm not saying that doesn't happen but it shouldn't.