Harry_webster. I can see by your reply you understand the bigger picture,how this issue will affect many other people who are still serving. Its always good to see other people on line with a grown up attitude towards issue.

Canteen_cowboy. Firstly I never called you any names,where is fool in my last reply to you. I shall now put this in the most basic way possible,The Issue is Social Housing Discrimination.To that end,I have been placing letters on site about how a member of the armed forces is treated under the current Homelessness legislation. This is the part that affects military families from getting housed were their family has settled down.Serving members of the armed forces, and other persons who normally live with them as part of their household, do not establish a local connection with a district by virtue of serving or having served there while in the forces.

Once again I'm not after a house right now in fact all I want is the local connection points! Any other person in the UK only has to live in an area for 6 months in 1 year or 3 years in the last 5. A Military Family could live in the same area for 5 years pay taxes, school their children, set roots and be a part of the local community. Now housing prices over the last 6 years have soared, well out of reach of any middle class family. You say you served in the forces,and you got council housing,so why are you trying to fight and argue about this issue,you have your council house. Maybe you're like so many other people in the world, I have my place and my money,"P!ss Off" and live on the streets attitude. Now dont get all defensive I'm only making an observation, the points you have made so far have been arguementative with very little substance or fact,now I am placing facts on this forum issue on how I as a military person am being treated,I am doing this for two reasons: Firstly. So others that are serving understand they will not get social housing as quickly as they believe,they should as soon as possible get on the property ladder. Secondly. I'm trying to get homelessness legislation changed so those that are at the lower pay bracket or injured in the forces can get housed easlier.
I hope you can now understand some of the big picture.

I was unsure who I should address this letter to,Mr Blair,Mr Brown or Mr Edwards. I do hope the real Prime Minister will step forward and reply to this letter.

The only people in this country that can give an exact date, they require to be out of their house under eviction rules,is the armed forces,we are told, you can stay for this long, and then, you must vacate the property. With this in mind we can tell housing associations from which date we need help. The reason I'm mentioning this is as follows: Under the homelessness legislation when you are within 28 days of your Notice of Cessation to Occupy your present accommodation expiring. At present families can be placed in B+B for upto 2 years! but in other areas I have been told that the maximum time is 6 weeks!
Then again they still have the Hostels and Battered wives homes to put military personnel in.


Mr Nickxxxx Cxxxxx
16 xxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxxxx
Sxxxxxx
Bedfordshire
Sxxxx Xx

30th September 2005



Dear Prime Minister,

I have written to your office twice already and the only reply I get is from Mr G Edxxxxxx from the direct communications unit. He has explained to me that you don’t read all the mail you get as there is too much, I can totally understand this however as I have explained in the two other letters this issue is getting worse. I phoned the ODPM and asked them to answer the questions I had put to you as their reply letter failed to highlight or answer any of the questions I had asked. I was informed by a
Mr Jxxxx Bxxxxxx who works at the ODPM the following: he was unable to answer any of my questions as he had never come across this issue before, my questions were passed onto another department which he has informed me has more knowledge in this area. I’m still waiting for their reply.

I have recently been given a position on the Local Parish Council for the area I wish to live. I will be involved with parish plans as well as other issues. I telephoned the housing association (Axxxxxx) and informed them of my new position and asked if this would be of any use in my plight for local connection to the area. To say I was dismissed and discriminated against would fall short of the pitiful manner in which I was treated by Axxxxx housing.

I have had time to pursue social housing, unlike many that are serving at present, who’ll run into the same discrimination that I am facing at present. I am trying to be strong for my family however with the inevitable homelessness me and my family will suffer in the near future I am finding it hard to see the any light at the end of the tunnel due to the bigoted manor in which we in the armed forces are treated by some housing associations.

I have listened to you on television talking about Equal Rights, Discrimination and Respect, how is it that those, who serve this country, are not permitted the same rights as other citizens of the United Kingdom. We suffer discrimination under the current homelessness legislation which states: Serving members of the armed forces, and other persons who normally live with them as part of their household, do not establish a local connection with a district by virtue of serving or having served there while in the forces.
This paragraph is what housing associations hold against members of the armed forces when they are in the unfortunate position of applying for social housing in an area which they know and in which their family are settled.



Your ever obedient servant



Mr Nickxxxx Cxxxxx
Colour Sergeant

As you will see by these letters,the system is going to change, when this is going to happen is anyone's guess. When I followed up on this statement by the Head of the Affordable Housing Division,things were not as they seemed. the Deputy Prime Minister Office is still saying NO go away!

I have just had some great news on this issue, and I wish to share it with all those that have been following this thread.
I emailed the AFF Journel last night with the following. I have just had a reply which is the second letter.

Dear Sir/Madam.

I must say your September Journel was very colourfull. I'm only sorry that the chair person didn't find it worthy enough to run an article on the Homeless people who had served their country. The Focus Magazine did run a piece on Homeless ex-service personnel,however their figures were incorrect as you can see by the entry I have placed on the www.armynet.mod.uk , social / housing associations forum.

Many people have contacted me and said they find the research I have done very eye opening,and how is it that the forces don't publish more information? At present, I'm taking my personnel plight to 10 Downing Street, the PM has had three letters from me and he will continue to get them until he replies in person.

The Homelessness Legislation, section seven, is discriminative against serving personnel and their families. Local Connection is a must if a person is to receive social housing.

Nikki Pxxxxxxxxxxxx, who was looking into the current affairs of social housing, found it disgusting that Military Families could be treated so badly.

I have left a large file with the chair person for the AFF Mrs S Cxxxx. I believe it would be of great benefit to run an article on housing associations. The AFF need to challenge the Defence Minister on their next meeting, and ask why are those who become itinerant by the very nature of military life, being forced into becoming third class citizens when it's time to leave the forces.

Its time that the homelessness legislation changed and was brought into line with the Human Rights of Armed Forces personnel and their Families. With over 30% of the homeless in this country being ex-forces personnel, this is the greatest number by far to any other social group.

Regards
Nick Cxxxxx
C/Sgt


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Nick,

I thought I would write and let you know that there is some work going on with reference to priority registration with the Regional Housing Associations. The following paragraph has been taken from a paper from SP Pol MOD, which was sent to the Chairman recently.

The Head of the Affordable Housing Division agreed that it seemed iniquitous to exclude Service Personnel from accruing local connection points for the duration of their posting to the local area when applying for social housing, especially when this falls in their last 2 years. He undertook to discuss this with the Homelessness Division of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM), with a view to amending the Homelessness Act 2002. If this is successful then it would open the way to granting Service Personnel priority registration at other times as well.

I don't know what the outcome will be or how long it will take but at least it is now being looked into and I am sure you will have played a part in this.

kind regards

Axxxxx Bxxxxxx
AFF Office Manager

I have been told from the start, that local council and housing associations, have their hands tied in relation to local connection points for the military personnel. I am placing a letter I recieved from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister this morning on the site, as you will see local councils and housing associations have the power to over rule current homelessness legislation. I would like to find out who is mistaken ODPM or the local council / HAss.



Customer Liaison Unit
Floor 3/A5
Eland House
Bressenden Place
London SW1E5DU

Mr Nick Cxxxxx
16 xxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxx
Bedfordshire
Sxxx 5xxx

7 October 2005

Dear Mr Cx.

I am writing to you following earlier correspondence written to you from my colleague, Miss Jxxxxx Wxxxxxx, and our phone conversations. I am sorry that it has taken me a few days to get back to you, as I said over the phone; I had to speak to some policy officials with responsibility for housing issues before being able to reply.

Firstly, I am afraid that I have to re-iterate what Miss Wxxxxx said in her letter - that this Office does not have the power to force councils or housing associations into allocating housing, as this is the responsibility of the council or housing association itself. I can, however, provide you with some information that I hope you will find of some use.

I can see from your original letter (of 11 July to the Prime Minister) that you have spoken in detail with Axxxxx, your local housing association. Axxxx is an independent organisation, like other registered social landlords, and is free to approve its own lettings and sales policies.

The body that regulates registered social landlords, the Housing Corporation, sets out in its Regulatory Circular 'Tenancy Management: Eligibility and Evictions' that housing need should normally override any special consideration of local connection, although there are some exceptions that I mentioned on the phone to you. They are:

- where S106 agreements apply; The ODPM is unable to explian this area S106 agreement

-if an offer of accommodation would conflict with the RSL's governing instrument;

-if a local lettings policy is in place.

Where RSLs operate local lettings policies, these should demonstrably and reasonably balance the competing demands of local authority nominations and pressing housing need, against policies promoting balanced communities. It is not clear whether Aragon does operate a local lettings procedure, but they will be able to advise you of this.

You might like to get in touch with the Housing Corporation for further details about this circular. Their web-site is: www.housingcorp.gov.uk, and the telephone number is 0845 230 7000.

Incidentally, the Housing Corporation should also be able to provide you with a list of all the housing associations in your area, and it might be worth getting in touch with some of them to see whether they are in a position to help.

In terms of local authority housing, I have enclosed a booklet which is the Code of Guidance for local housing authorities. I am not sure whether you have already applied to the local authority for housing, but you will see that page 23 & 24 of the guidance discusses the issue of local connection, so might be of some use to you.

As I said on the telephone, I am still seeking some clarification about S106 agreements, and will get back to you with further information as soon as I am able to. In the meantime, I hope this is of some assistance, and that you are able to resolve this matter soon.

Yours sincerely


Jxxxxx Bxxxxxx

I asked my local housing association about affordable housing in the area, the government's new scheme part ownership. I would need 90K as a deposit and a mortgage,I am unable to get 90K and unable to get a morgage due to my ill health. Lord forbib that I should be a burden to our local authority, or have the bare *rse cheek to ask for aid, I'm only a tax payer at the end of the day.
As you can see, the legislation has been in since 1978. I believe it's the Prime Minister who is saying we are in a changing world. It's time he ensured the homelessness legislation was changed and brought into line with current housing problems that armed forces personnel face on a daily basis.
This is an email I received today. Please read and make your own formal conclusion on whether this is just the party line.

* The green writing states the criteria for obtaining local connection both for civilian and former armed forces .From my own personal situation, having already lived in an army quarter in this area(the same area in which I hope to settle), for 4+ years and having payed rent and local taxes, this does not count for anything at all. I find this unbelievably incorrect and totally frustrating and I think this legislation is discriminative towards forces personnel and needs to be changed.

*The writing in blue is simple to explain. If an individual is not from this country and has no connection to this country, then they will be housed with whichever local authority they apply to.

*The Red writing shows the discrimination being shown by this legislation towards armed forces personnel. The legislation needs to show it will not discriminate against any social group. Each apllication made by a member of the Armed Forces, should be considered individually in stead of the current system whereby all service personnel are treated as a group with the joint decision being a very load NO!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dear Mr CXXXXXX

Thank you for your e-mail, which has been passed to me for a reply.

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in arranging accommodation for when you leave the armed forces. It is not clear from your e-mail how long it will be before your posting ends, but it does seem that you are attempting to make arrangements in good time beforehand, which should give housing providers as much time as possible to help you find a home.

You have referred to the local connection provisions in the homelessness legislation. This legislation would only be invoked if you found yourself likely to become homeless within 28 days (or actually homeless). It is to be hoped that you will be able arrange alternative accommodation before reaching that point.

The Government takes all aspects of homelessness very seriously and is working hard to tackle the root causes and put in place measures to prevent homelessness occurring in the first place. The Government's new strategy, “Sustainable Communities: settled homes; changing lives”, published in March set out plans for working with local authorities, voluntary sector agencies and others to deliver measures to prevent homelessness and provide support for vulnerable people; work to improve hostels and provide more settled homes in the social and private rented sectors and work across Government to tackle the wider causes and symptoms of homelessness.

To support delivery of the strategy we have increased homelessness funding for local authorities and voluntary sector agencies to provide a wider range of effective front-line services. A summary of the strategy is enclosed and the full report is available on our website at www.homelessness.odpm.gov.uk.

Under the homelessness legislation, housing authorities have a duty to secure accommodation for housing applicants who are eligible for assistance, unintentionally homeless and who fall within a priority need category. (Some persons from abroad are not eligible for assistance.) Applicants who have dependant children have a priority need. Where a "main homelessness duty" is accepted, the authority must secure that suitable accommodation is available for the applicant and his or her household until a settled home becomes available for them.

Authorities may also consider whether applicants have a local connection with their district. However, this is discretionary only, and is not a requirement. A local connection with an area may be established not only through residence but also through employment, family associations or special circumstances. A civilian would have to be resident in an area for a minimum period to establish a local connection because of residence, in the same way as a former member of the armed forces who had been posted to the area.

If the local authority considers that the applicant does not have a local connection with their area and does have one somewhere else, they can seek to refer the case to the local authority in the other area. However, they can only do this where they have decided that the applicant meets the criteria set out above, and then only if there would be no risk of violence to any household member in the other area. (Pending a referral, the authority must provide temporary accommodation, until the referral is agreed (or not) with the other housing authority.) If an applicant does not have a local connection anywhere in England, Wales or Scotland, the authority to whom he or she has applied for accommodation must accept the duty to secure accommodation.

The principal policy aim of the local connection provisions is to avoid significant burdens falling on housing authorities in "desirable" areas that might otherwise attract large numbers of applicants, for example, areas of high employment or other attractions, such as popular seaside resorts. The reason for disapplying employment and residence in an area from establishing local connection where these derive from service in the armed forces, was to avoid similar burdens falling on housing authorities whose district includes a forces base. These provisions have been in place since the legislation was introduced in 1978.

The purpose of the homelessness legislation is to provide a safety net of last resort for families and vulnerable people who become homeless through no fault of their own. Although some applicants may be referred on to another local authority where they have a local connection, the legislation ensures that they will be provided with a suitable home.

The main route into social housing is by application to a housing authority to join the "housing waiting list" which I understand you have already done. While housing authorities cannot exclude someone from the waiting list because he or she does not have a local connection with the district, they can take local connection into account in assessing the person's priority. You say that you have 33 points and that there is little chance of your being re-housed through this route. Unfortunately, in areas such as London and the South East, demand for affordable housing is very high and this can mean that the waiting time for suitable social housing can be lengthy, even for those who have priority under an authority's allocation scheme.



Regards
Axxx Exxxxxxx

Homelessness & Housing Support Directorate
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister

Seems that the answer to the problem is .... get a day return Dover Calais , get next boat back , throw passport over the side and claim political asylum on arrival at Dover. As an ex service man, woman you are being persecuted , discriminated and victimized , therefore you meet all the criteria.

Originally Posted by hitback

Harry_webster. I can see by your reply you understand the bigger picture,how this issue will affect many other people who are still serving. Its always good to see other people on line with a grown up attitude towards issue.

Canteen_cowboy. Firstly I never called you any names,where is fool in my last reply to you. I shall now put this in the most basic way possible,The Issue is Social Housing Discrimination.To that end,I have been placing letters on site about how a member of the armed forces is treated under the current Homelessness legislation. This is the part that affects military families from getting housed were their family has settled down.Serving members of the armed forces, and other persons who normally live with them as part of their household, do not establish a local connection with a district by virtue of serving or having served there while in the forces.

Once again I'm not after a house right now in fact all I want is the local connection points! Any other person in the UK only has to live in an area for 6 months in 1 year or 3 years in the last 5. A Military Family could live in the same area for 5 years pay taxes, school their children, set roots and be a part of the local community. Now housing prices over the last 6 years have soared, well out of reach of any middle class family. You say you served in the forces,and you got council housing,so why are you trying to fight and argue about this issue,you have your council house. Maybe you're like so many other people in the world, I have my place and my money,"P!ss Off" and live on the streets attitude. Now dont get all defensive I'm only making an observation, the points you have made so far have been arguementative with very little substance or fact,now I am placing facts on this forum issue on how I as a military person am being treated,I am doing this for two reasons: Firstly. So others that are serving understand they will not get social housing as quickly as they believe,they should as soon as possible get on the property ladder. Secondly. I'm trying to get homelessness legislation changed so those that are at the lower pay bracket or injured in the forces can get housed easlier.
I hope you can now understand some of the big picture.

you are changing legislation by your efforts, amazingly you are doing it off your own back all the letters are addressed to you personally, not some organisation you have founded, not as a representative name, but as you.maybe you don't understand where i am coming from either, or you have no concept of reality, I actually find you condescending, being able to write letters and name drop is very nice for you, and you manage to pester all the politicians and get your plight on to local television. i am not trying to fight against you I think I said in my 1st post i sympathised, but you refused sympathy in reply, so basically. this whole thread looks to me as "well look at me and what I am trying to do for EVERYBODY".... no you are trying to do it for yourself, which is fine and dandy, I feel the rest is just a consequence of the troubles you have gone through.

The basics of it are you cannot get a house where you want, you became a parish councillor hoping that will help you? is not being an active local government officer frowned upon whilst serving? possibly not, but might be construed as a conflict of interest..

If you truly wanted to help other servicemen giving the facts which you have eventually got round to, would have been much better than trying to tell us your hard luck story.

P.S. maybe you are not the 1st person on this thread to have got a med discharge....

If people are unable to stand up and be counted due to the fact they are serving in the military then that is a real shame. I've had many people come to me and ask what can they do to get this issue out into the public domain. Representative name,are you really as thick as you make out. I fail to understand you at all. You must have some kind of personality problem, some kind of issue about people trying to inform others about facts that will affect them in the future. There has to be an active case before government will listen. I documented this issue because it's unknown to a civilians, understanding that those that have, or are serving, to be treated outside the law. Discrimination. I should get the letters sent to where? Doing it of my own back, YES its an issue that affects me! Its illegal to form an organisation that affects the governmental ruling whilst serving the crown!, however under human rights i'm allowed to take my personnal issues forward. The other issue of finding me condescending,well your correct there. I can smell an attitude a mile away,and you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder. I was asked to be on the Parish Council to represent the forces persons on camp!
The look at me statement is just one of your normal low blows, cheap and meaningless. I have read with real interest some of the other sites about doing fund raising for the homeless,this is being run and controled by a member of the ARRSE site (IS this person doing it for a look at me or to help with the issue). The hard luck story as you say is the prelims to how this all got started, remember every situation has a begining, and unless the issue is explained in detail,the Mission and execution has no grounding.It's like the orders process. Prelims,GroundSituation,Mission,Execution,Service Support and Command and Sig's.

Know to get back on to the thread of homelessness and Discrimination. The following was placed on a site from a person with great aptitude for current affairs and issues that affect military personnel.

Nick
I'm find it hard to believe that no one in senior military circles has not taken this cause on as a project. I have followed your threads with great interest and have felt your pain along the way.

The closure of the CGS thread did not help and the fact that you have gone through so many MPs' that you have now had to resort to MEPs' is outrageous; We also need to remember that most of thse replies are not in fact from the MPs or MEPs but their advisers and Civil Servants. Soldiers and indeed young officers just can not get on the housing market, which especially for the likes of SNCOs and warrant officers with 20 years + service is outrageous. 15 years ago these individuals left the Army with pension, gratuity and if they did not already own a house could easily buy one in the area of their preference. Not so now. We are so behind the inflation curve it is sickening.

In 1979 Maggie came in to power and saw what the Labour government had done to us and if I remember correctly (my father was serving, I am not quite that old) she gave all servicemen a 14% pay rise and then during her tenure gave pay rises to keep with inflation. Under the labour government, and Gordon Browns economy we have seen the re-surface of upstairs - downstairs and with our annual pay rises between 1 & half % to 2 & half % and not necessarily all together, not withstanding the escalation of property prices.

We have seen more operational service in the last 10 years than the last 100 but yet we are still over looked. I have a very distict memory of being in the Gulf as one of Tony Blairs mercenaries and hearing about our pay rise for that year; well would you believe it 2 & half % split over the year. Nice to be appreciated.

Well nuff said. Back to the original thread, I know that we do not have a union, good or bad I would not like to comment but we can show unification. Maybe now is a good time to voice our opinion on mass. How about you start a PETITION, I presume electronic would do; a thread on ARMYNet would probably be very appropriate, the question obviously needs to be right in the first place. The ARMYNet is very badly visited but I expect that between those that are watching this thread we could easily get a lot more visitors because this subject is effecting so many people at the moment it is incredible, especially SNCO & WO.

Opinions?

Old Timer good point I was born in Malaysia (Penang), I did tell the housing organisation I had a Malaysain Birth Certifacate a well as an English One,I was told by them the following,"You have paid taxes to this country so you dont any immagration rights,also the fact you are in her Queen Service lets you down. Old Timer thanks for getting involved in this issue and I hope to see you again on here.

Spoke to my wife, who is a Housing Advice Officer (yep, one of those geeks behind the counter....). Predominantly Navy down here, but there are multiple shots lined up against those that leave the Services. If you have ANY money at all (gratuity, pension, etc) they expect you to use it to find yourself accommodation. You do not qualify for housing by virtue of your last posting as you were moved to the area as part of your job, and it is the duty of your employer to house you. Because they stop housing you, you do not become the responsibility of the local Housing Authority. However, if your partner works in the area, you will get some points for it, the same as if your children go to school and are at crucial stages of education.

Going in and quoting the "I've just served 22 years for Queen and Country" does not go down well - especially when the next words that come out are "I have no money and nowhere to live". They know that you have pensions, resettlement grants and gratuities, you have to declare them. Effing and blinding is pointless.

She says that your best bet is the following:

Stay in the MQ. If you leave the MQ, you are making yourself voluntarily homeless. If you are evicted, then you should be found some accommodation. However, expect it to be an immigrant or druggie filled hostel at first. You will join the list at the bottom. Do not despair, there are ways to improve your lot.

Move into privately rented or privately purchased housing ASAP. Those that make no effort to house themselves cannot expect everyone to fall over to help them. The LSAP increase has just been kiboshed, it won't happen because they can't afford it. £8.5K is not a lot, but it is something to get you started. The earlier you start looking and buying, the easier it will be when it comes to getting outside.

If you leave the MQ, get into a rented property. As you move in, get the landlord to serve you with an eviction order. This makes you unintentionally homeless. Never, ever walk out of a tenancy agreement or agree to leave accommodation. You can move into friends or relatives accommodation, and they can serve you with an eviction order.

Contact the HAO on a weekly basis, asking for an update. Do it politely. Do not rant about druggies, immigrants, criminals, etc. Criminals do not get priority housing, immigrants are housed by the home office. If you have anything which may be relevant to your case, get it in writing - medical, dental, financial, ties to the area, letters from the school, offers of employment. All these will lend weight to your case. Whilst the Housing Department will not actively persecute you for being a pain in the arse, you will end up in non-preferred areas, or you may be deferred when placed in competition against someone else. It costs nothing to be nice, and they really appreciate it.

She is apprehensive about giving case by case information, as some HAOs have lost their jobs for carrying out this sort of thing outside of the interview rooms. I will try and get more detailed information from her as I can, but I cannot stress enough the importance that they place on making the appointment, presenting them with information, and being respectful and helpful with the case officer. Making the situation veer slightly to your benefit is not to be looked down upon either! Because housing is such a legal minefield, maybe you should be suggesting to the RAO that a briefing from the local HAO would be of benefit to those in the last couple of years of service?