ARmy Rumour SErvice

**jagman** · 10-07-2012, 02:01

Originally Posted by jumpinjarhead

I will just chime in to observe that the point is well-taken as I have also come to the conclusion the Iraq and Afghan (the second phase after the immediate post-9/11 take-down of the Taleban that I think was justified) campaigns were, are and will be seen in future as tragic wastes of blood and treasure. I do note, however, a rather clear tone of frustration among my UK colleagues that seems to me to be overly directed at the US as a convenient "whipping boy" when the appropriate target of this angst should rightly be their own government.

To be honest, I blame Brown and Blair entirely for the mess the UK got itself into. Blair for blindly walking Britain into both campaigns without any forthought at all and Brown for doing his best to make sure they could never succeed.
It is not the fault of the US that there was little in the way of post invasion planning in southern Iraq, nor is it the fault of the US that a fraction of the required resources were put into Helmland.

I have no moral objection to war, it is mankinds favourite pastime. It is preferable if something is achieved from it though

**Herrumph** · 10-07-2012, 06:04

Yes, of course Blair can be held responsible for the lies and deception leading to GW2 and for believing he was on some righteous mission on behalf of God. The Afghan intervention is more justifiable - there was widespread international support based on hard facts. Brown of course only gets minor blame for begrudging every penny spent on Blair's folly.

Some of our military commanders also need to step up to the plate and accept responsibility as well. Advice that must be considered questionable include:

"Yes, we can support two major and difficult engagements"
"Yes, we can afford to switch our efforts from Afghanistan to Iraq"
"Of course a lightly armed mobile brigade can hold Helmand"
"I'm sure the budget will stand the pressure"

**Goatman** · 10-07-2012, 11:57

Well said.

J-J, I don't think most serving Brits blame the U.S for Iraq and AFG - they know our own time-serving self promoting sh1thead pollies dragged us in .

But I hope the good folk Over There won't take it amiss if the response next time ( and there will, undoubtedly, be a Next Time) is a rather more measured;

' Thanks awfully old thing - include us OUT'

Poor old Winston's Special Relationship is looking a tad threadbare from this end.....

**jumpinjarhead** · 10-07-2012, 13:47

Originally Posted by Goatman

Well said.

J-J, I don't think most serving Brits blame the U.S for Iraq and AFG - they know our own time-serving self promoting sh1thead pollies dragged us in .

But I hope the good folk Over There won't take it amiss if the response next time ( and there will, undoubtedly, be a Next Time) is a rather more measured;

' Thanks awfully old thing - include us OUT'

Poor old Winston's Special Relationship is looking a tad threadbare from this end.....

Let us all hope the next time (and I agree given human nature there will ALWAYS be a next time) we can go together and that it is appropriate in all respects (clear national security threats to both our nations that warrant military force and with a clear exit strategy/end game BEFORE we kick it off) for us to do so.

**jagman** · 10-07-2012, 14:54

Originally Posted by jumpinjarhead

Let us all hope the next time (and I agree given human nature there will ALWAYS be a next time) we can go together and that it is appropriate in all respects (clear national security threats to both our nations that warrant military force and with a clear exit strategy/end game BEFORE we kick it off) for us to do so.

Perhaps next time the UK government will send a force with sufficient manpower and fully tooled up to the job asked of it.
This "punching above our weight" bollox is no substitute for having the ability to lay waste to everything that stands in the way.

For a country with centuries of warfare under its belt and three prior wars in Afghanistan the UK wandered into Afghanistan and Iraq criminally under equiped and woefully casually.
And Herrumph is entirely right, it wasn't just the politicians suffering from blind optomism.

**bokkatankie** · 10-07-2012, 18:36

Originally Posted by jagman

Perhaps next time the UK government will send a force with sufficient manpower and fully tooled up to the job asked of it.
This "punching above our weight" bollox is no substitute for having the ability to lay waste to everything that stands in the way.

For a country with centuries of warfare under its belt and three prior wars in Afghanistan the UK wandered into Afghanistan and Iraq criminally under equiped and woefully casually.
And Herrumph is entirely right, it wasn't just the politicians suffering from blind optomism.

Perhaps next time the Military professionals who give the Government advice will tell the truth!

**LeoRoverman** · 10-07-2012, 18:37

I'm not holding my breath, politics being what it is.

**Alamo** · 10-07-2012, 18:59

Originally Posted by bokkatankie

Perhaps next time the Military professionals who give the Government advice will tell the truth!

I have never been in a position where I have been required to give a politician advice, but I have staffed plenty of stuff for people who have. Senior military folk are there to tell the politicians how it is; ie the hard, truthful facts presented in an unemotional manner and appropriate tone. Unfortunately, my experience suggests to me that we spend too long second-guessing what the market will bear, and tailoring our advice accordingly. It's easy to kick the politicians, and often justified, but on many occasions I suspect they have approved exactly what was asked of them, which was what we thought we could get not what we really wanted/needed.

**redshift** · 10-07-2012, 19:04

A couple of points to self:

- Exit strategy, exit strategy, exit strategy, exit strategy, exit strategy - there is absolutely no fucking point in blindly going to war without one. You really can't "wing it." - the reason why we are in the whole mess in the first place.

- Brits really need to stop f-ing around with the whole "punch above your weight" BS. Either you go fully prepared/ committed or you don't. End of!

- Your politicians need to grow a pair of f-ing balls FFS! Stop saying "yes" to everything Washington asks you of - comes across as very needy. And while at it, F- the whole "special relationship" nonsense - doesn't carry any weight in D.C. anymore, conveniently ignored by whoever is in power ("French are our best allies" - The great one). If you have a good reason to support, there are clear objectives to be achieved please be on our side, otherwise please tell Washington to go f-itself.

Regards,

/ a Yank-expat currently (mostly) resident in the UK
// Thank you all for supporting us anyways, right or wrong. Sorry for all the lost British lives. Such a waste.

**seaweed** · 10-07-2012, 19:23

This business of telling the next bloke up what he wants to hear starts at the bottom, as I learnt many years ago when I tried to get a superior to tell his boss that some idea was flawed (I forget the actual subject):

"Come on, Seaweed, you don't expect me to tell the King his crown's on crooked?"

Some chaps worry about the truth and some worry about getting promoted.