ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by Mr_Deputy

Rampant - maybe he just means that the guy who was taking the Compensation payment was of fighting age for example. Not about the details of the 'ceremony' itself. Its probably not outside of the Taliban's remit to step in when they know innocents have died and claim the payment.

Agreed, it is not beyond the Taliban to utilise such incidents in that manner to fund their cause, afterall they know how the system works better than we. I'm certainly not discounting that, hence possibly/possibly not stance, my point was to view the exchange through the wider cultural context - not everything is a sit first appears, a phenomena that all too often cuts both ways.

Originally Posted by Mr_Deputy

Rampant - maybe he just means that the guy who was taking the Compensation payment was of fighting age for example. Not about the details of the 'ceremony' itself. Its probably not outside of the Taliban's remit to step in when they know innocents have died and claim the payment.

I did wonder that myself, for someone who had just lost a wife and three daughters he wasn`t very emotional, but then he could`ve been in shock, and as I `ve no idea how Afghan men accept personal family loss I had no example to compare it too. He did seem rather uncomfortable with the whole thing but when he was given the money I half expected him to say 'That`ll do nicely thank you' without batting an eyelid.
Pushing the ANA to go through the door was cringeworthy, especially when one marine called an ANA chap a 'pussy ass'. When ISAF leave and these chaps have to do the main job themselves I think the taliban will walk all over them as they have no confidence and any that they did have will be eroded by instances such as that above.
The last ten minutes of the documentary was particularly sad with the Captain and a few others being satisfied with improvements in the bazaar area and the new park they built, only for the afghans to complain on camera about the security situation, exacerbated by the fact that the marines had lost control of some of the previously held 'safe area'.
The Captain summed up the situation in the closing part of the film when he said ' To do this job well I need to have loyalty and faith but...the taliban are still in the area despite our efforts, and it wears down my men' or words to that effect.

Originally Posted by jumpinjarhead

Alas I get this when I try to watch-I will wait until next week when I am there:

"This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds. "

Originally Posted by zazabell_012

From the comments the documentary seems to be must watch TV. Sadly I'm in the same position as JJ and am blocked. I have tried a few of the unblocking ideas mentioned in text, with no luck. I guess I'll just have to wait for the vid to swim down under! Ah well, ces't la vie.

Try googling 'UK proxy servers' that allow you to copy and paste the URL like this one for example http://www.daveproxy.co.uk/

There is also FoxyProxy but it is a bit more of a cake and arrse party to sort out.

4OD seems like a lost cause but youtube may be fooled by a proxy server.

Originally Posted by Check_0ne_Two

I thought the documentary superbly highlighted the frustration combat forces can have conducting policing and COIN operations with limited ROE.

I think that's part of the same point. If commanders have a well-drilled understanding of the wider situation, you can avoid the need for counter-productive rules of engagement.

When the programme started I was actually in the middle of reading 'With The Old Breed' for the first time and watched it all with that book open on my lap.

For those who don't know, briefly it is the fantastic (gob smacking, really) memoire of a US Marine who fought in the WW2 Pacific island battles of Peleliu and Okinawa.

It must be very strange, almost schizophrenic, for men from that corps, raised on a tradition forged in battles like that with plenty of OooRaah along the way to find themselves having to pussy foot around a local population having just won a minor battle and lost blokes fighting people who were until recently in their midst.

Far better I would have thought to get in, win the battle and then get the original fighting unit out of the way while another unit comes in and does the longer term hearts and minds bit without the emotional baggage of the previous firefights.

Originally Posted by Micawber

When the programme started I was actually in the middle of reading 'With The Old Breed' for the first time and watched it all with that book open on my lap.

For those who don't know, briefly it is the fantastic (gob smacking, really) memoire of a US Marine who fought in the WW2 Pacific island battles of Peleliu and Okinawa.

It must be very strange, almost schizophrenic, for men from that corps, raised on a tradition forged in battles like that with plenty of OooRaah along the way to find themselves having to pussy foot around a local population having just won a minor battle and lost blokes fighting people who were until recently in their midst.

Far better I would have thought to get in, win the battle and then get the original fighting unit out of the way while another unit comes in and does the longer term hearts and minds bit without the emotional baggage of the previous firefights.

Would you mind awfully having a chin wag with our lords and masters and perhaps getting them to understand that? The problem of course is we are stretched too thin on the ground and forces like the USMC, 82d Airborne and Rangers are rotated in just like "regular" (including Reserve and NG) Army forces. I know this seems hard to grasp at times to our allies given the overall size of the US military compared to theirs but we really are like a dog chasing its tail in terms of the op tempo and its effect on personnel and equipment.

Originally Posted by DeltaDog

I have. It's noisy, agressive, and you need to grip people and force them as they panic.

I highlighted that incident as the most obvious example, but throughout the programme, there appeared to be a genuine lack of respect for the ANA and the local population. Obviously it's naive to point fingers at the troops on the ground, but somewhere along the line that should have been drummed into them.

* To clarify, I've worked with US forces in the past, and still keep in touch with a couple of the guys I met. I'm not part of the chip on the shoulder anti-US brigade who tend to pop up on threads like this.

I know that you are (usually ) a level headed sort. I was not referriing to the ANA-related aspects but to some comments as to the yelling etc. that at least as I read the post(s) did not put it in the context of concern about the abusive tone of such "noise" toward the ANA. To the extent that is there, it is unfortunate and obviously not as constructive in terms of COIN as more positive treatment but I will reserve any conclusion as to that reflecting poorly on all aspects of the US forces to the extent some have on here until I know the entire context.

I also hasten to add this is my consistent approach for US forces (yes including my beloved USMC) but also the forces of ANY of our allies instead of rushing to judg(e)ment from the relative comfort of my dining room (the LHCO is hovering about). As my posts on other threads make clear, I also am very critical of any US or allied forces who are proven to have fallen short of the high standard of professionalism required. Such proof , however, means the relevant facts are known not assumed, including the larger context that is usually not covered by the media.

I firmly believe our fantastic military forces deserve no less than our presumptive support until they prove it is unwarranted. Too often they are criticiz(s)ed not only by "armchair generals" but also by those who actually are motivated (even subconsciously) by political or ideological reasons regarding the war itself etc. but the military end up being the collective "whipping boy" as my generation saw with the Vietnam War.

I believe that part of the reason the ANA were being pushed through doors etc., is that the operation was supposed to be being "lead" by the ANA. I do think that a few of the comments made towards them were a little uncharitable however.