Thread: TRF's DZ flashes and regt accrouments cadets and Adults

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by static-line-pimp

mmm let me see ,,,,,,Should CFAV's be paid ?
Yes, and I will tell you why before you jump down my throat....

I assume we all agree that cadet forces are in principle a good thing ?...

I assume that we all understand that those who manage and run such activities should be correctly qualified?

Now based upon the fact that CFAV's are employed fulltime elsewhere in (proper jobs) ,that leaves a very small amount of time to firstly achieve these qualifications and secondly to actually run meaningful training which ensure that cadets remain within the cadet forces .
That time has to come out of the CFAV's own time ..nobody gives them additional holiday (except the lucky few) to go off and complete this commitment,consider also that not everyone works mon-fri either.
So why shouldn't these people recieve payment for the service they are performing?

Good post, now, lets compare CFAV to other 'volunteers' in other uniformed youth organisations...

Nah, lets just cut the crap and get to the point.

You bunch of monkeys hid behind the 'doing it for the kids' and good works crap to justify drawing pay and allowences whilst others like the scouts and guides get nada and have to raise the money for their activities rather than getting 99% of everything handed to them on a plate out of the Defence budget.

You Sir are a mong!

The Scout leaders who just run weekly activities do not get paid. The fcukers who run the activities do get paid.

Activity Administrator (Ref: 09/033)
Salary: £13,464 (plus £1760 outer London weighting if you do not take up shared accommodation on site)
Gilwell Scout Activity Centre
2 years fixed term contract

Guest Services Coordinator - Hawkhirst Scout Activity Centre (Ref: 09/032)

2 years fixed them contract
35 hours per week
£18,879 per annum

The AIs in the Sections/Dets do both of these activities and you expect them to do it for free!

Like I said, get over yourself and fcuk off.

And you're a fcuking idiot, who can't see the difference between people in a full-time role and those like you and the scout master who volunteer at the coal face.

So, answer me this numbnuts seeing as you want to confuse the issue

What do CCF School Staff Instructors get paid?
What do ACF CEOs QM's and CAAs get paid?
What do the staff at CTC get paid?
What do the staff of the ACFA get paid?

T
Agreed they all get paid!
However, the activities that an AI does is far more difficult than a Fcuking scout leader and more like the above. Even then they do not mess around with Pyro and weapons.
The point I was making was that they do get paid. AIs should get paid on a “pro rata� basis.
Thanks

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by static-line-pimp

mmm let me see ,,,,,,Should CFAV's be paid ?
Yes, and I will tell you why before you jump down my throat....

I assume we all agree that cadet forces are in principle a good thing ?...

I assume that we all understand that those who manage and run such activities should be correctly qualified?

Now based upon the fact that CFAV's are employed fulltime elsewhere in (proper jobs) ,that leaves a very small amount of time to firstly achieve these qualifications and secondly to actually run meaningful training which ensure that cadets remain within the cadet forces .
That time has to come out of the CFAV's own time ..nobody gives them additional holiday (except the lucky few) to go off and complete this commitment,consider also that not everyone works mon-fri either.
So why shouldn't these people recieve payment for the service they are performing?

Good post, now, lets compare CFAV to other 'volunteers' in other uniformed youth organisations...

Nah, lets just cut the crap and get to the point.

You bunch of monkeys hid behind the 'doing it for the kids' and good works crap to justify drawing pay and allowences whilst others like the scouts and guides get nada and have to raise the money for their activities rather than getting 99% of everything handed to them on a plate out of the Defence budget.

You Sir are a mong!

The Scout leaders who just run weekly activities do not get paid. The fcukers who run the activities do get paid.

Activity Administrator (Ref: 09/033)
Salary: £13,464 (plus £1760 outer London weighting if you do not take up shared accommodation on site)
Gilwell Scout Activity Centre
2 years fixed term contract

Guest Services Coordinator - Hawkhirst Scout Activity Centre (Ref: 09/032)

2 years fixed them contract
35 hours per week
£18,879 per annum

The AIs in the Sections/Dets do both of these activities and you expect them to do it for free!

Like I said, get over yourself and fcuk off.

And you're a fcuking idiot, who can't see the difference between people in a full-time role and those like you and the scout master who volunteer at the coal face.

So, answer me this numbnuts seeing as you want to confuse the issue

What do CCF School Staff Instructors get paid?
What do ACF CEOs QM's and CAAs get paid?
What do the staff at CTC get paid?
What do the staff of the ACFA get paid?

The point I was making was that they do get paid. AIs should get paid on a “pro rata� basis. Thanks.

I know the fcuking point you were making sh!t for brains, but you weren't comparing like for like now where you. That's your first failing.

You second failing is that most guide/scout full-time centres operate during the week to host school groups etc and all sorts of other organisations for outdoor activities and team building as a comercial operation, which you obviously didn't know.

So come on big boy, justify, if you can, why CFAVs should get paid and draw allowences out of the defence budget whilest other national uniformed youth organisations don't, because I can't see the argument or justification for wasting taxpayers' money on CFAVs pay and fuel millage for their hobby.

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

T
Agreed they all get paid!
However, the activities that an AI does is far more difficult than a Fcuking scout leader and more like the above. Even then they do not mess around with Pyro and weapons.
The point I was making was that they do get paid. AIs should get paid on a “pro rata� basis.
Thanks

Are they really? Interesting, so a newbie PI with no military knowledge has more to deal with than a Scout Troop Leader, but gets just how much per day in cold hard cash?

Grasping at straws now with your 'justification'.

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

T
Agreed they all get paid!
However, the activities that an AI does is far more difficult than a Fcuking scout leader and more like the above. Even then they do not mess around with Pyro and weapons.
The point I was making was that they do get paid. AIs should get paid on a “pro rata� basis.
Thanks

Are they really? Interesting, so a newbie PI with no military knowledge has more to deal with than a Scout Troop Leader, but gets just how much per day in cold hard cash?

Grasping at straws now with your 'justification'.

You are say a Newbie PI = Scout leader. More like OC Section / Det commander = Troop leader. then Yeah, that is what I am saying.

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

T
Agreed they all get paid!
However, the activities that an AI does is far more difficult than a Fcuking scout leader and more like the above. Even then they do not mess around with Pyro and weapons.
The point I was making was that they do get paid. AIs should get paid on a “pro rata� basis.
Thanks

Are they really? Interesting, so a newbie PI with no military knowledge has more to deal with than a Scout Troop Leader, but gets just how much per day in cold hard cash?

Grasping at straws now with your 'justification'.

You are say a Newbie PI = Scout leader. More like OC Section / Det commander = Troop leader. then Yeah, that is what I am saying.

Still grasping...

You 'volunteer' CFAVs get paid and draw expenses from the public purse.

Other national uniformed youth organisation 'volunteers' don't.

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by static-line-pimp

mmm let me see ,,,,,,Should CFAV's be paid ?
Yes, and I will tell you why before you jump down my throat....

I assume we all agree that cadet forces are in principle a good thing ?...

I assume that we all understand that those who manage and run such activities should be correctly qualified?

Now based upon the fact that CFAV's are employed fulltime elsewhere in (proper jobs) ,that leaves a very small amount of time to firstly achieve these qualifications and secondly to actually run meaningful training which ensure that cadets remain within the cadet forces .
That time has to come out of the CFAV's own time ..nobody gives them additional holiday (except the lucky few) to go off and complete this commitment,consider also that not everyone works mon-fri either.
So why shouldn't these people recieve payment for the service they are performing?

Good post, now, lets compare CFAV to other 'volunteers' in other uniformed youth organisations...

Nah, lets just cut the crap and get to the point.

You bunch of monkeys hid behind the 'doing it for the kids' and good works crap to justify drawing pay and allowences whilst others like the scouts and guides get nada and have to raise the money for their activities rather than getting 99% of everything handed to them on a plate out of the Defence budget.

You Sir are a mong!

The Scout leaders who just run weekly activities do not get paid. The fcukers who run the activities do get paid.

Activity Administrator (Ref: 09/033)
Salary: £13,464 (plus £1760 outer London weighting if you do not take up shared accommodation on site)
Gilwell Scout Activity Centre
2 years fixed term contract

Guest Services Coordinator - Hawkhirst Scout Activity Centre (Ref: 09/032)

2 years fixed them contract
35 hours per week
£18,879 per annum

The AIs in the Sections/Dets do both of these activities and you expect them to do it for free!

Like I said, get over yourself and fcuk off.

And you're a fcuking idiot, who can't see the difference between people in a full-time role and those like you and the scout master who volunteer at the coal face.

So, answer me this numbnuts seeing as you want to confuse the issue

What do CCF School Staff Instructors get paid?
What do ACF CEOs QM's and CAAs get paid?
What do the staff at CTC get paid?
What do the staff of the ACFA get paid?

The point I was making was that they do get paid. AIs should get paid on a “pro rata� basis. Thanks.

I know the fcuking point you were making sh!t for brains, but you weren't comparing like for like now where you. That's your first failing.

You second failing is that most guide/scout full-time centres operate during the week to host school groups etc and all sorts of other organisations for outdoor activities and team building as a comercial operation, which you obviously didn't know.

So come on big boy, justify, if you can, why CFAVs should get paid and draw allowences out of the defence budget whilest other national uniformed youth organisations don't, because I can't see the argument or justification for wasting taxpayers' money on CFAVs pay and fuel millage for their hobby.

I would try and justify it but you obviously are not open to anyone elses argument so i wont.

Just a point though but comparing scouts to the ACF is impossible because they are both fundermentally different organisations.

Originally Posted by Nutter

I would try and justify it but you obviously are not open to anyone elses argument so i wont.

Just a point though but comparing scouts to the ACF is impossible because they are both fundermentally different organisations.

Please try, I would love to know why an ACF Lt Col gets around £130 a day for up to 28 days a year (though most get a lot more than 4 weeks pay a year!) for his'her hobby.

I would also love to know what the fundimental differences are between the ACF and the Scouts are, in your opinion, as to the casual observer, they have more similarities than differences.

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

I would also love to know what the fundimental differences are between the ACF and the Scouts are

The ACF cadets understand this hand gesture.....






especially when directed at them after a mess function at 0400hrs.

Originally Posted by FiveAlpha

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

I would also love to know what the fundimental differences are between the ACF and the Scouts are

The ACF cadets understand this hand gesture.....








especially when directed at them after a mess function at 0400hrs.

Originally Posted by Nutter

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

Originally Posted by static-line-pimp

mmm let me see ,,,,,,Should CFAV's be paid ?
Yes, and I will tell you why before you jump down my throat....

I assume we all agree that cadet forces are in principle a good thing ?...

I assume that we all understand that those who manage and run such activities should be correctly qualified?

Now based upon the fact that CFAV's are employed fulltime elsewhere in (proper jobs) ,that leaves a very small amount of time to firstly achieve these qualifications and secondly to actually run meaningful training which ensure that cadets remain within the cadet forces .
That time has to come out of the CFAV's own time ..nobody gives them additional holiday (except the lucky few) to go off and complete this commitment,consider also that not everyone works mon-fri either.
So why shouldn't these people recieve payment for the service they are performing?

Good post, now, lets compare CFAV to other 'volunteers' in other uniformed youth organisations...

Nah, lets just cut the crap and get to the point.

You bunch of monkeys hid behind the 'doing it for the kids' and good works crap to justify drawing pay and allowences whilst others like the scouts and guides get nada and have to raise the money for their activities rather than getting 99% of everything handed to them on a plate out of the Defence budget.

You Sir are a mong!

The Scout leaders who just run weekly activities do not get paid. The fcukers who run the activities do get paid.

Activity Administrator (Ref: 09/033)
Salary: £13,464 (plus £1760 outer London weighting if you do not take up shared accommodation on site)
Gilwell Scout Activity Centre
2 years fixed term contract

Guest Services Coordinator - Hawkhirst Scout Activity Centre (Ref: 09/032)

2 years fixed them contract
35 hours per week
£18,879 per annum

The AIs in the Sections/Dets do both of these activities and you expect them to do it for free!

Like I said, get over yourself and fcuk off.

And you're a fcuking idiot, who can't see the difference between people in a full-time role and those like you and the scout master who volunteer at the coal face.

So, answer me this numbnuts seeing as you want to confuse the issue

What do CCF School Staff Instructors get paid?
What do ACF CEOs QM's and CAAs get paid?
What do the staff at CTC get paid?
What do the staff of the ACFA get paid?

The point I was making was that they do get paid. AIs should get paid on a “pro rata� basis. Thanks.

I know the fcuking point you were making sh!t for brains, but you weren't comparing like for like now where you. That's your first failing.

You second failing is that most guide/scout full-time centres operate during the week to host school groups etc and all sorts of other organisations for outdoor activities and team building as a comercial operation, which you obviously didn't know.

So come on big boy, justify, if you can, why CFAVs should get paid and draw allowences out of the defence budget whilest other national uniformed youth organisations don't, because I can't see the argument or justification for wasting taxpayers' money on CFAVs pay and fuel millage for their hobby.

I would try and justify it but you obviously are not open to anyone elses argument so i wont.

Just a point though but comparing scouts to the ACF is impossible because they are both fundermentally different organisations.

I agree with all the previous statements which have already been stated. The fact of the matter is that Cadets is not like any other volunteer organisation. Be it ACF, ATC, CCF or SCC; they all have something in common. Not just an element of danger and adventure but an element of serious danger and death.
Each of the volunteer groups goes to activity centres and participates in these activities (which they do pay for out of donation or parental contribution). The cadets do not do this but they train their own staff to organise and supervise their own activities. This takes lots of time and effort to achieve “satisfactory standard� in accordance of duty of care and some sort of military standard in accordance to the massive web of legislation and regulations that the MOD sets out.
What do you suggest? Funding by donation? The public funding a military themed youth organisation? That will not happen and the cadets will fall flat on its face. This will reduce the number of the youth being exposed to the armed forces and I believe would affect Army recruitment.
Furthermore, As a way of rewarding the massive effort these guys put in they are remunerated. Which I believe this should continue due to the selfless attitudes which all of the AIs/Officers have. I must be clear that his remuneration is not massive, not by a long shot. The RAF and the Navy still remunerate their AIs and Officers as they believe in the worth of their adults. Just because of the government trying to save money is the reason why Army cadets are getting in the neck.
When I got out of the Army I used to think the same as you (i really did). However, seeing what the cadets get involved in, I can say without question that remuneration should be brought back in April.

Originally Posted by walting_matilda

I agree with all the previous statements which have already been stated. The fact of the matter is that Cadets is not like any other volunteer organisation. Be it ACF, ATC, CCF or SCC; they all have something in common. Not just an element of danger and adventure but an element of serious danger and death.

None of the activities of the cadet forces are any more dangerous than that of the Scouts and Guides. I challenge you to name me one.

Each of the volunteer groups goes to activity centres and participates in these activities (which they do pay for out of donation or parental contribution). The cadets do not do this but they train their own staff to organise and supervise their own activities. This takes lots of time and effort to achieve “satisfactory standard� in accordance of duty of care and some sort of military standard in accordance to the massive web of legislation and regulations that the MOD sets out.

Scout and Guide Leaders are trained too, to their own operating procedures, so no difference there.

What do you suggest? Funding by donation? The public funding a military themed youth organisation? That will not happen and the cadets will fall flat on its face. This will reduce the number of the youth being exposed to the armed forces and I believe would affect Army recruitment.

Really? SCC units have virtually no MoD funding in comparision to ACF/CCF and are funded from within the community etc and they seem to survive.

Furthermore, As a way of rewarding the massive effort these guys put in they are remunerated. Which I believe this should continue due to the selfless attitudes which all of the AIs/Officers have. I must be clear that his remuneration is not massive, not by a long shot. The RAF and the Navy still remunerate their AIs and Officers as they believe in the worth of their adults. Just because of the government trying to save money is the reason why Army cadets are getting in the neck.

So, are you saying that CFAVs are worth more than their counterparts in the Scouts and Guides and that they put in more time and effort than them?

When I got out of the Army I used to think the same as you (i really did). However, seeing what the cadets get involved in, I can say without question that remuneration should be brought back in April.

Scouts and Guides and the cadets are great whilst as a kid.

Their leaders are, on the whole, fantastic.

But one lot do it for the sake of doing it, the other do the same AND get pay and allowences from MoD to do it.

And some CFAVs will stop if they don't get paid, so why not scrap all pay and be real volunteers...

I've been involved with the cadet forces and scout association in various positions/ranks, so hopefully I can comment.

The two organisation are very similar, they work with young people of similar ages, are uniformed, and have an aim and method. The way they acheive that aim is what differs. I would argue that a Scout Leader running a section for lets say 60 young people has far more responsibility than their cadet force counterparts. They are often solely responsible for everything from health and safety, to finances, to training, to programme planning, to organising camps etc. They are normally assisted by other volunteers, who (as in the cadet forces) range from totally useless to fantastic - but these people usually only "turn up and help on the night". The difference with the Scout Association is that managing the performance of volunteers is difficult.

Hand on heart, I honestly beleive being a Scout Leader is more involved and more time consuming if you are to do a good job. I understand there are about 50,000 army cadets; there are 400,000 Scouts in the UK - just to give you an idea of the numbers involved. I accept the dangers of ammunition and explosives don't exist, but I've been able to deliver far more exciting (aka hazardous) activites through the Scout Association (such as overseas wilderness expeditions) that just would not be possible with the cadet forces.

I think the two organisations attract different types of adult, and I will get stick for this, but I don't think it appropriate for adults in the cadet forces to be paid. I'd hope that most would continue if pay was permanantly stopped, those that left are in it for the wrong reasons.

Finally, both are fantastic organisations. Although both have shit adults involved, both attract kiddy fidlers, and both attract walts (although I'm sure the cadet forces must attract more walts)!

No one I know works with cadets of any colour ,mine are light blue, for the money or are "walts" a lot of staff over here have a daytime uniform as well or used to wear another one.I ran out of paid days last August and since then I have been at three cadet training weekends,an adventure training weekend, two staff training weekends, four range days, organised and ran a visit to an overseas air force,provided cover at six days gliding , two bag packs and taking part in three parades,this in addition to my own units two parades a week and assisting at another unit every week due to a shortage of staff.
Following todays parade I have spent the last five hours adding info onto BADER and completed two RASPs for upcoming ranges on Easter camps for visiting Wings as they have no qualified A2 RCOs coming with them so I have been "asked" to run the ranges. For a "hobby" this at times seems like a full time job .
If you think it's easy give it a try like most hobbies it ends up costing you money ,to start with we don't get issued 95s or boots so that comes out of our own pockets.

Originally Posted by StickyToffeePudding

You bunch of monkeys hid behind the 'doing it for the kids' and good works crap to justify drawing pay and allowences whilst others like the scouts and guides get nada and have to raise the money for their activities rather than getting 99% of everything handed to them on a plate out of the Defence budget; but then when the cuts happened and the funding and PTDs stopped, you carried on providing quality training in your own time, spending hours of your own week writing up safety instructions (RASP / EASPs) or orders or lesson plans or accounts or any of the million other things to do, driving to the unit on your own fuel, missing your friday night at the pub to take the kids in the field, and didn't complain once about it. Only us bitter idiots moan about the fact that once upon a time you did.

Sorry, I just thought I'd edit that for you, seems you missed a bit.

I also think that when you're strongest argument in a discussion is

"ACF Instructors should not be paid because scout leaders aren't paid"

You either need educating on the difference on the Youth Organisations, or you are a complete idiot.

Now, I have given you the choice, so I'm not calling anybody an idiot.

However, to ensure that it's a fair test, I have provided the following information:

http://www.armycadets.com/home/
http://scouts.org.uk/

you can now go ahead and read that. once done, you can either return and declare yourself an idiot, or come back with a reasonable argument.

but the argument 'people shouldn't pay car tax because they don't pay horse tax and you can ride a horse on the road' is useless... as is the equally useless 'cadet AIs shouldn't be paid because scout leaders aren't, and scouts is a youth organisation too'