[quote="Gravelbelly"][quote="The_Duke"]


The easiest way to make the rifle more effective in the hands of the average soldier would be a handguard that wasn't bolted to the barrel;

no the easiest way would be to make effective shooting practice part and parcel of infantry life. (corp and others probalby too much ot ask )
The army has people who know how to shoot well and how to coach it has rounds and ranges
but getting troops ammo guns and instructors to the same place at the same time with enough time to actually improve shooting seems difficult to achieve.

[quote="brighton hippy"][quote="Gravelbelly"] Was ever thus, at Shornecliffe the QMSI took the remedial shots (those that couldnt do the grouping and zeroing even and turned them into the Bn Shooting team, they did well but the effort involved could have been shared around. The first thing done was the QMSI grouped everyone of the remedials rifles to prove they could cut a clover leaf group at 30 yards. Then he coached them on to doing it themselves. That would have been good if all the lads had been allowed to watch it take place.
Nothing as good as showing the recruit his rifle will group if he does his part. Groups can be moved around but they need to exist first!

had the er "priviliage" of being coached for 40 min once turned me into a resonable shot for a while so its doable
unfortunatly people think turning infantry soldeirs into dealers of death
is less important than just about anything really
new no2s barrack dress or shed loads of ammo and range packages

Best range ever was a after an APWT we had a major cabby with the ammo we had left, the Leiutenant in charge of the range was on the loudspeaker - "Targets to your front - GET SOME!!!"

Sure, it's majorly frowned upon and is a complete waste of ammunition, but did it put a smile on everyones face and put morale through the roof? Yes it did. For weeks after people were more than willing to go on the ranges, shame it never happened again.

I'm not saying this should be common, no way, just that a bit of fun goes a long way to encourage a bit of enthusiasm.

While frowned upon, there might be something to the above.

I am not a bad, shot, relativley speaking, but I have never felt that I have been given timr to get used to firing the rifle.I always feel as if I am being rushed through the shoots as "we have to do X,Y and Z shoots today aswell".

Merely giving the troops a morning at 300m,200m and 100m, blatting away at thier hearts content(at a deliberate rate of fire of course) would improve confidence, and results.

Though it will never happen.

If you go to most civvy shooting clubs that's exactly what happens. "In your own time" actually means that and people take their time and work on what they are doing rather than doing it all under pressure with the feeling that the RCO is looking alternatively at you and his watch.

Aside from that, learning to shoot in soft headgear and without webbing is a good idea. Once you know how you need to arrange yourself to shoot you can adapt your kit to your shooting style rather than vice versa.

Also, to DEVELOP shooting skills more challenging, basically smaller, targets are required. The current fig 11/12/14 etc may well be representative for the purposes of the IBSR etc but they don't help develop shooting skills because its too easy to hit them, particularly at short range.

Further, learning to shoot at a target with no distinct aiming point is a skill to develop once you can shoot well at one with a small distinct aiming point.

When shooting for groups I have always found that I get tighter groups when shooting at a smaller aiming mark. This is where skill development really takes place. If you can shoot to 75% of the rifle's capability when static in slow fire you are ready to move onto the more difficult stuff.

It happened with us in NI. The L85 was introduced, Rifle companies had 2 weeks of training followed by 1 week range package excluding field firing. We got 2 x 40 minute lessons and the next day on the range back as far as 600. Quality fun, the OC Recce went on to be someone very special and understood the best way to get us shooting the new rifle. 12 mags each and thousands of rounds. We felt our way through the system if you know what I mean, the lessons had covered safety, IAs, cleaning and sights. Lets face it that was really enough!
We also ran a lower rate of NDs than with any other system or compared to any other platoon in Bn and we always deployed made ready! I suppose the fact that we had trained on a lot of different weapons by then helped.
A bit like the Clansman conversion, we played in the room for 15 minutes before the instructor turned up. By the time he did we had assembled 349s and 351s and run radio checks. He spent 15 minutes on the do's and donts and left us alone whilst he had a smoke break. Sorted, best RRU level course ever!

I did a bit of shooting team stuff, once upon a time, but I always felt that one thing that was always assumed was that the shooter and target would be on the same level. When we moved on to shoots involving elevation firing up or down, the quality of shooting went to ratsh*t almost instantly. Most people could remember windage left and right, but adjusting for angle up and down was simply never taught.

This is something that has never really been addressed, which is strange, because we spend a lot of time in cities nowadays, and one thing they ain't is flat.

The range to apply is the horizontal range to the target.

If you want to learn ballistics, fill your boots here:
www.jbmballistics.com/...ions.shtml

Glad to see some of you agree with me, i was prepared for a 'fcuk off' for my encouragement of unorganised cabbies

Range, yes. Position and hold, no. I think in many cases it is lack of familiarity. Everyone was used to 'routine' ranges for APWT, gallery and moving target. Throw in a bit of elevation and angle, and everyone went to pieces.

I see what you mean, position and hold. I think this just needs to be practised on a suitable range. Thing is there are no suitable ranges to practice it on........

Had something similar on the final exercise of my (infantry) IET; due to some stuff-up, we ended up with a double issue of front line. I was at one end of the pit with the MG and stacks of link, my No.2 was at the other with my rifle and a sandbag full of mags. We ignored each other for the duration of the shoot, concentrated on what we were doing and had a great time, cutting down gum trees and starting grass fires.

Anyone ever shot on Tregantle in Kernow, couple of inclined ranges there?

In 1980 while at Sennelager we spent a most of a day getting rid of 9,000 rounds of 9mm with Brownings and Sterlings.
It was the remains of the Battallions training 9mm for the year. We had to use it or return it.
When I left mid afternoon there was still a fairly massive pile of containers left, surrounded by Guardsmen busy filling their mags.
No training shortage then.
Good Days.

I have happy memories of grabbing all of the 7.62 and range time that was too much trouble for others...

In the days of SLR, I found that running ARA Match 3 Practice 2 was a good warm-up to put the APWT into perspective. Cancel that - adopt the standing position, and a quick race to put 10 rounds rapid towards the targets from 100m was a better one. Not fast enough, do it again. Still not fast enough. Right, now we've got the gunshyness out of the way, let's concentrate on shooting straight...

Huge fun is underrated in teaching value

(Advice to the aspiring subaltern - if you want to do any blank firing training, always schedule it shortly after an FTX, when the RQMS is sitting on sandbags full of returned ammunition and pyro, anticipating the nausea that is to follow... as if by magic, you appear as the solution to his problem. It's amazing the quality of training when everyone is carrying first-line-scales for every BHE)



Look back to the 70s and 80s - "Skill-at-arms Order" involved stripping everything off the webbing except the ammo pouches. Wearing lightweight trousers, and soft headdress. Add a Bisley of sunny days, ice-cream vans, and sh*tloads of 7.62; and I was a very happy teenager.

Except... shooting was perceived as being "unrealistic", and the pressure since has been to add helmets, full PLCE, body armour, the better to develop the battle shot.

I can see the merit of both ways...



True. What everyone forgets is that the APWT is a test of basic skills, suitable for recruits nearing the end of their training - a bare pass is certainly not what an experienced soldier should be happy with.

That's what the targetry and shoots in Pam 20 are for - unfortunately, if you run into the "wrong" range staff, changing 40-odd ETR targets from 11/12/12c at 300/200/100 to figures 12/12c/14 suddenly becomes too much like hard work... the shrinkage can also be a bit of a leap for the "developing firer".


Grossman's "On Killing" has been mentioned in another thread - suffice it to say that there's good psychological reason why we train from day one by shooting at people-shaped targets.

I think the problem is that there are too many worthy training objectives, too many well-intended processes to ensure "quality", and too few hours in the day.

The lowest standard of training quality has been raised over the years - if you were unlucky, it was shouting, beasting, and not much coaching. Training planning could be inspirational, but it could also be dull and repetitive. As a subaltern it took me months before I persuaded the OC to run a shooting weekend where we tried to teach, rather than just push people through APWT attempts.

On the other hand, being an arrogant sod who always thought he knew best, I resented prescriptive programmes preventing me from tailoring my training according to the needs of the students...

Last edited by Gravelbelly on Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:21 pm; edited 3 times in total

Wah deflectors on

Yes there are... there's the IBSR, and Field Firing ranges (he says, showing his age, LFTT it is then). No-one said that you were only ever allowed to use them for tactical skills... the Section in Defence ranges are perfect for this kind of stuff.

And the one thing that the SASC aint, is involved in operations day-to-day. The one thing they is involved in day-to-day is (you guessed it already) flat ranges.

Go figure, as they say stateside.

My conclusion? SASC are a signific ant barrier to operational effectiveness.

Got to agree here, my Bn was very heavily into shooting. Whenever possible we had range days, at one time each company had a range day every week. As the restrictions on ammo started to bite this was gradually reduced to at least once a month which was not sufficient. The SNCOs who used to run these ranges knew how to make shooting interesting and did so, it was only when the SASC turned up that things became more 'formal' and bl*ody boring. One of the most often used 'competitions' was the falling plates organised so that two sections shot against each other with time and ammo constraints, scores being kept. The level of competition and rivalry ensured that troops shot to their full potential, even when having just ran some considerable distance to shoot.

As for 'free for all' shoots, I have been involved in many in different parts of the world and I think that they can be the most fun shoots. They also engender total familiarity with your weapon system which is very important.