in_the_cheapseats:
Steven
Had a quick look and failed to see what you are getting at. What's your point?
There was a time when the block was inspected/maintained by the simple provision of block inspections/self help, now I know this is no use if the walls are falling down etc but it did seem to help.
Now according to some, as highlighted in the other threads, block inspections and the like are infringements on the guys human rights and they are all grown ups etc etc.
I know that this is not the ONLY cause but as I said it just makes me wonder if it is all part of the same problem?
Thoughts?
milsum:
David Cameron wants to tender all re-development of forces accomodation to PFI's. Good in the short term but surely the MOD will end up paying over the odds for the next 50 years to relinquish what little governance they have over it (cf hospitals).
It used to be more expensive before things were privately contracted out (and services took a nose dive and efficiency evaporated), but that's because good service costs more. It's not rocket science - poor investment leads to a poor state of affairs, and as a result living standards have ended up in the same place as equipment. In the toilet.
I just hope young potential recruits don't take the horror story images and recent outcrys from those in charge too much to heart and abandon plans to join. If the Governement does nothing about what is being highlighted it will make such characters as the Adj Gen appear impotent, and undermine faith in those in charge.
Milsum,
PFI contracts do cost more than an equivalent Public Sector Comparator. Build costs will roughly be equal, but life cycle costs will vary significantly, and over the life of a contract the PFI contract will cost between 17 - 20% more than if the MOD owned, managed and serviced the facility. In addition the contractor, where damage occurs, is likely to replace rather than repair, all adding to the cost.
The upside, however, is that as long as the contract is managed properly, and units monitor and report poor service, the barracks/facility will be maintained to a high standard over the life of the contract. Even better is that the funding to enable this cannot be reduced as the MOD is under contract that includes sig penalty clauses for pull out/reduction of service.
So What:
We must either have a complete PFI estate or a complete MOD estate. Why - because whilst we are maintaining a dual estate, the MOD estate will always take the hit if funding is tight, and there will exist a growing and yawning gap between MOD and PFI managed facilities.
What would I opt for? PFI anytime. Why? - for the reasons stated above and to ensure that the EP is funded not by making periodic raids on the estates budget, but by proper resourcing in it's own right.
Live in hope, die in despair.
PAW
xmal:
Let's say that the accommodation was for nurses rather than squaddies. Would the government have acted? I think so.
No they wouldn't My wife used to live in nurses accom she paid £80 a month for a room you couldnt swing a cat in. No showers until just before she moved out etc just the old baths and sinks the block was about the same age if not older than most of the blocks having issues at the moment. If anything student nurses/nurses are lucky to have acomm these days my wifes mates got told to leave within a matter of weeks so their appartment could b sold off to private developers and any acomm theses days are oppcupied by foriegn doctors.....inc consultants the very people who can afford to live out.
I've lived in some right sh1tter blocks in my time Buller Bks being the worst. Whilst in London our blocks were condemned but by adding double glazing to them extended the life of them 
. Posted back there and the blocks were still in use heating inadiqute and not enough portable heaters in the QM's to go around.
As for the blocks being in rag order ever thought it might not be the singies fault? we had civi cleaners do ours and it was a crap job they carried out spent more time gassing and fagging it then leaving the fag buts on the floor than doing the job. Lucky for us we were told just to tidy the rooms only.
The pic of the bath was pretty bad however someone has pointed out that it maybe OOB as someone considered that it's in a block that has been condemned/unsafe due to asbestos etc and that due to this block being unfit for use that squaddies are being squeezed in like sardines
The tories can shut up harping about it as well this probelm was present when they have been in Government
Quote:
To improve their lot, perhaps the forces personnel could swop accomodation with some of the people who contribute least to our society?
From Nbair newsforums.bbc.co.uk/n...0104103157
Moosaca:
We have so many 'trained' artisans in the forces who aren't allowed to practice their trade or are misemployed yet still paid for the qual. Many want to carry out their trade, why not let them crack on? If it's because they haven't got the Governmentaly Recognised qualifications - why have them in the forces? Plumbers, Sparkies, Chippies etc, they could probably sort out a row of semi detatched houses in half the time it takes the local contractors or MOD Recognised, over priced, lazy, underskilled planks that we all know and love.
A few years ago ( 2001/2) I worked in the former DAQ part of LAND, involved with a a small scale quick-win effort dubbed Project Reader.
Went to Aldershot garrison to look at what was probably the worst accomm in the British Army - Montgomery Lines ( which I understand is now empty though not yet demolished). It was built in the early 1960's by a guy called Poulsen ( yes, the one later jailed) with an anticipated life of 20 years. When the Paras moved out in late 1990's it was kept occupied.
Before they moved to St Athan the last resident unit to my knowledge was the Welsh Guards.
One of the cookhouses (Rhine Bks?) was out of use because the flat roof needed refelting. Soldiers were having to be marched across a busy road to another barracks for messing. Some couldn't be arrsed and skipped meals or spent their own money on takeouts. The then resident Bn was the last hang-out of Airborne, 9 Para Sqn RE.
Being fresh-faced and excusably ignorant I asked exactly the same question - what's to stop you carrying out the work yourselves?
I was told.....Unions.....Health & Safety......money.....er.....
The PROM also told me that it was costing them £2K to get a SINGLE double glazed window replaced.
If you talk to the people who have been in charge of Army accom (and this is NOT just an Army problem but conspicuously the worst of the the 3 Services) they will tell you about what is termed
' The historic bow-wave of underfunding '
Back in the day, when BUDGETS were disaggregated, the Garrison local property maintenance budgets were routinely raided to pay for other things which local commanders - that is SOLDIERS, not "MoD bean-counters" note - saw as the shark nearest the boat. Ask someone about the conference centre at Upavon !
So
> The gutters and paintwork didn't get done every other year, as had been the practice.
> The 'Man with the Van' who would come out and fix a broken door or a light fitting or a window got either retired or put on the 'Black economy'
> The grass got cut twice a year instead of once a month.
> The cry was ' let our soldiers get on with soldiering' - no more Work Parties, no more grounds maintenance being done by Defaulters.
Now, as any PROM or 'Site representative' will grudgingly tell you, you can get away with minimal maintenance for a couple of years. But then, the gutters overgrown start leaking water into the fabric, the paintwork not renewed leads to other problems, the grass uncut leads to vermin infestation in buildings and ( eventually ) becomes a fire hazard.
And, of course, contracting out around 200 Minor Works Contracts into four Regional Prime Contracts has had a big impact on how things are done.
This is what my ex boss the former Director Army Estates had to say on Boxing Day ( before Gen Freddy piped up)
Barracks scandal
Sir, The Government is indeed asking too much of its soldiers (report, Dec 22). Not only are they overcommitted but they are also disgracefully undercared for in old, leaky and inadequate barracks.
Although well known in the Ministry of Defence, the scale and duration of this problem is scandalous. Years of underinvestment and mismanagement have left an appalling legacy that will take a great deal of money and many years to resolve. The Government’s commitment to the Army would be significantly enhanced by some serious resolve to increase spending on barracks maintenance and improvement. These budgets need ring-fencing by the Treasury from the annual plunder of albeit important but shorter-term demands in the MoD.
TOM FOULKES, BRIG (RET'S)
Director of Army Estate
1998-2002
----------------------------------
It may be that people will say 'Why didn't he speak up when he was in office ? ' Well, he did.....frequently.....long and loud.....to anyone who would listen.......but nobody wanted to hear it.
A new barracks such as the build on the old Mons College site in Aldershot costs £200M plus.
One of the main reasons (I'm told ) that we still have 22,000 Service personnel in Germany - costing the UK HOW MUCH? and contributing HOW MUCH to the German economy ? - is because we have nowhere to put them if they came back to UK.
I don't think Grasping Gordon is about to step up with either Capital or Resource funding for military infrastructure anytime soon.......breath holding ? Check, check, check.
Le Chevre