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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:59 am
Author: CRmeansCeilingReached
i once shagged a girl who looked like a hobbit. was that Bilbo Baggin?

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:40 pm
Author: Rockstar Location: Somewhere green

SicSemperTyrannis:

BTW, the frat was with a senior (female of course) and she was hot, was it worth it? Ehhhhhh..... I had better Very Happy

Picture?

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:22 pm
Author: Bagster
'kin ell fellas, I leave this thread alone for a couple of weeks and how random has it become???

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:32 pm
Author: CRmeansCeilingReached

Bagster:

'kin ell fellas, I leave this thread alone for a couple of weeks and how random has it become???

you're just jealous because you've never had a bit of hobbit-love Smile

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:44 am
Author: chinjey Location: afghanistan
was the hobitt an Arabic student at DSL? if so , i will fall on my sword and admit "liasons" were had by myself

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:12 pm
Author: SOLDU3
I notice this thread was started almost a year ago. Has the situation improved at DSL? Confused

I have read the thread on the new language award scheme and I assume that has gone some way to improve how linguists feel about their role and support.

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:03 am
Author: chinjey Location: afghanistan
to sum it up, i have just seen the DIN and as a pashto speaker who has done 3 tours currently on my 4th i think the financial package is excellent, although it is unlikely that our time on operations will count on the new system ,but hey ! at least our work is being recognised .

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:11 am
Author: Fraser
You might want to actually read the DIN instead of just looking at it. Wink

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:45 am
Author: CRmeansCeilingReached

chinjey:

was the hobitt an Arabic student at DSL? if so , i will fall on my sword and admit "liasons" were had by myself

if you read page 7 you might get the joke Smile

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:40 pm
Author: chinjey Location: afghanistan

Fraser:

You might want to actually read the DIN instead of just looking at it. Wink

hmm, ive not seen a pay statement for a year or had a report for he last 4 ,my point being i am constantly on ops, no problem there ,i volunteered, i can only read what i have access to,which is a summary of the pay,Plus i am a solid Infantrymen, with the attention span of a fish, so if you have further details please pass them on, I draw attention to my signature quote!

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:58 pm
Author: steinlagerXV Location: Cambodia with my montagnards
get the impression that some proper grown ups are reading and contributing to this thread, so I'm keen not to look stupid, or to end my career early. What career? Good point. So I'll make this my last post.

Also I also realise that nobody - within or outside Beaconsfield - wants to read whinging & gossip so I'll try to avoid it. If I don't, apologies.

Quote:
There is a key distinction to make between DJC and other customers, of which DSL has more than most, with widely differing needs. As with all servants of many masters, it is pulled in numerous directions at once, and this is a key weakness to subjects as currently taught.

I only see a section of DSL, I admit that. However I consider the DJC courses the most important. Other wings teach English & prepare Captains and Colonels to loaf around meditteranean cities sipping cappucinos. These seem to be reasonably well run.

It has long been the case with Bex that is all they have been geared for for a long time, I was already a French Linguist when I was ent there years ago and the French I was being taught was alien to me, it was Parisian and I speak country yokel French, Basque Catalan to be exact, sort of like Cornish.

That leaves the Arabic and Herrick-related wings, with two streams namely the "proper linguists" and DJC ones. I believe, however, that addressing the DJC courses is more important. For a start, the majority of students are on them, and they *will* be going on ops straight after their training, unlike some "proper linguists". They're also a pretty one-shot weapon too. Remember that there's no career stream for the DJC guys, no incentive or offer to stay on. So if they want to leave after one tour ( the learning one ) they will.

[/i] Of the 14 guys that turned up for my Arabic course only two remain in the Services that is huge attrition rate, if that was a platoon it should come under huge scrutiny what was going wrong

The demands of the "customer" are really quite basic really, by comparison with the sneaky-listening courses and high level ones. The DJC courses are about providing linguists to field units of the Army - not interpreters & translators to high level diplomats or high level G2 functions.

Easier said than done, the role I did one minute I was a patrol terp getting blown up, that afternoon I was arraging a meeting for the general as the KBR linguists weren't in. Then the ADC was arguing with Iraqi offficers over passes through me, not easy. You need some element of high linguist capability, but as I'm sure you are aware not always possible and some of the people who turn up really shouldn't be there (at least I found that to be the case on following classes)

The students need to emerge at roughly L3, motivated & keen to learn more so that they can really contribute. Moreover they need the field skills to ensure that they don't become a liability when attached to a sub unit ( this is a different subject ). They need to be able to speak, listen, question at a reasonable level and perhaps write as well. They don't need to book a hotel room & discuss the intracies of the Iranian constitution. This will come as some suprise to Westminster.

Westminister have no idea about the demands of the theatre but they also go off the notion that we will be sitting about drinking cappucinos as you and I have previously mentioned. On the skills of individuals being deployed they need to be able to function as part of an infantry section which is an art form of its own, don't worry about intricacies of things like the Iranian constitution but I found that at election times the locals want to know your opinion on everything including their constitution you'd be surprised. Hotel booking could be relevant was when a kidnapped indivdual (civvy) was located in one. The application to book anything else is there.

To get them there more money would be great. I admit though that as I'm not an expert I don't have too much idea of where it could be spent. What frustrates me is that we could achieve so much more without doing anything complicated.

IILW has had huge problems adjusting from being what was the allocations department to becoming a fully fledged wing exceeding the size of the Arabic wing.

Darth - I don't see a simple "Quality v. Quantity" choice. Honestly. We can't just turn out a couple of ace interpreters per year, we need quantity.

This goes back to the quality of individual attending the course see previous remark on them

"You can only piss with the d.ick you've got" as a wise Pl Sgt told me. And actually the dick has pretty good potential. Not to become some massive strapping pleasure-giving rollercoaster ride Max Hardcore one, but good enough.

This involves using the talents we have better, namely:

The Students - I can say in all honesty that nearly every DJC student is keen. While serving a Bn I never had to compete with enthusiastic LCpls to put together a training programme, but my class and others are teeming with ideas gleaned from inspiration or previous experience language learning, which they're happy to follow through on. This is a great resource - especially since variety is essential in a 15 month course.

This is an advantage of the DJC courses, on the flip side you could end up as I had in my case having a Major taskable by Cpl, scary but you do need to get on with and work with these guys

The most productive fortnight my course had was when we unofficially ran our own timetable based on tutorials and minimal class time. The ethos was directed study - go away in your own time and learn about X so you can share your findings in the study language or undergo a detailed IOP about it. Go away and listen to these news reports. Come back with questions and requests for clarification.

The same is true of the Arabic course - their most productive week was a study week entirely of personal study while their tutors re-wrote the programme.

Everybody learns differently my most productive weeks were on ICLT and my trips to Dubai and Oman made lots of headway there, we did a week purely of oral worked for me, but as Im sure (and you should be getting constantly reminded) you are aware people learn differently.

These students are wasted in a "send-recieve" culture of 7 hours class room time a day. Instead of being allowed to learn like the intelligent volunteers they are, they're taught like a herd of recruits.

Some are some aren't, One of my classmates is in the Guiards and has been since he was 16, structured learning is what he understands

The Native Speakers
The teachers here have enourmous potential. The teachers here have degrees, doctorates, previous high ranks in the Afghan Army... but they're hamstrung by a template written by someone in Chicksands, ages ago, who nobody has actually met or held to account.

This goes and emphasises the disconnect with Westminister

They just need to be taught a common simple, workable teaching method and how to use the assets we have. More money? We have special electronic white boards which are never used, and language labs which are hardly used. Our class didn't use a language lab for over 6 months. Then, after pleading and bullying, we did. But the tutor ( an pleasant and clever guy ) didn't know how to use it or prepare materials. So we had to sit with headphones on, reading aloud. When he wanted to listen he stared across the class of 10 and tried to tell by lip-reading whether your pronunciation was correct. Of course, we didn't have a English translation, but it was a start.

That's just piss poor staff investment as they are contracted out

A further asset - Arabic and Afghan students. Have there been any joint-lessons? Of course not.

I had pleanty of joint lessons, oral they'd speak English we'd speak Arabic, take notes debreif in the last five minutes worked very well, it requires the co-ord of two departments but it is acheivable ask, it gets the results, and is beneficial to both parties

Quote:
"and in some languages students refuse to attend lessons" - I wonder what a 'Field Army CO' would have to say to this?

There was an A/Major who did this in ALW especially on friday, even though he lived on the patch I won't say anymore except that he was the most useless relic of an officer I have ever had the displeasure to serve with, I have decked officers of equal stature for less dickhead behaviour than he showed

Good point - and exactly the one I wanted to make. I don't expect AGC(ETS) to kow-tow to their teeth arm peers, or weep in front of the mirror in the morning, although its understandable.

But we don't put them through 11 months of interminable platoon attacks and drill to lead fighting patrols in Gereshk. Its simply so they understand the field Army's ethos, and share it. In practice this means ensuring that the dominant culture of what is a military school, is a military culture, rather than a buck-passing Civil Servant "well there are lots of stakeholders involved, and we're doing whats in the job spec, and we can't be horrid to the contractors" one.

This means understanding that the majority of students are not going to be in a Spanish training school, or Nimrod. The majority of them will be wearing body armour and carrying a rifle 15 months after arriving, as important enablers.

It means also understanding that expecting students to do the majority of their learning in theatre is stupid - stupid when you consider that we could send people for ICLT to friendly Dari-speaking countries, or for immersion training at the US Language School in Germany. But we don't

The Us Language school in Germany is a lesser facility than DSL, I had a US S/SGT on my level 3-4 he was nearer a two despite being a qualified interpreter according to the US Army.

Maybe we do need:

Quote:
a root and branch examination of what is taught and how - considering all of its customers. Once this and the appropriate current course and assessment design is done, it needs a full-on TDA capability to make sure that QA and design refreshes can take place. It also needs the J1-9 re-examining.

But I suspect that more pressingly we need an application of basic military logic. A system that doesn't wait for politicans to arrive with sacks of cash, or academics to arrive with new academic policies but - in the meantime - is subject to regular review internally and ad hoc improvement, disseminates information, enables students to learn, disciplines the ones who don't, and prepares them for their roles by working out what they are early, and making sure they're fit linguistically, tactically and physically to undertake them.

This is basic military sense, and it should be provided. I think its something to do with enthusiasm and grip. Perhaps I'm being snide, but when you think back to RMAS, were the aspirant AGC (ETS) cadets the competitive, pushy ones who really wanted to throw themselves in? I doubt it. They needn't all be, but there do need to be some in establishments like DSL.

Quote:
Personnel volunteering for the language courses ... have no real idea of the work at the end of it (and aren't pre-selected) and have volunteered to leave their career stream. Why? Because they either want to get away from work they don't like or... can't think of an or. So you end up with a group of people happy just to be on a long attendance course who then have to be spread across roles in an ad hoc fashion, leading to people being posted to roles with some fairly significant caveats in terms of skills/experience.

DJC students are unaware of the role they are going to perform, the DJC students want to be there, but in the majority of cases it is because they are bored with their current jobs - there was a lot of RMP in ALW - they do get spread across the roles in an ad hoc fashion. When we found out our places they still thought that a student who had been binned was deploying with us, this has changed in the last 18 months big time. The caveats for the deployed are unusual, but they are also rank ranged resulting in the fact that you may not get the right person for the job in terms of linguistic ability but he is of the right rank, I remember getting the Arabic Media Spokesman out of the poo sometimes, he got the job because he was a Capt, but he was not the best linguist.

True. But I don't notice a huge swathe of volunteers from the regular Army stepping forward. Or many of the current batch staying for ages? Why? Because there's no point. Once they finish their two tours, their only option is another two. Or to transfer to the Int Corps where they can end up in non-linguists roles in which they haven't been trained and don't use their key skill.

See what I said earlier about attrition rates, from the ALW classes before and after me it was pretty much the same ratio, this cannot be, or represent value for money by any stretch of the imagination.

What I do see is a lot of people like me. I volunteered to leave my career as a Management Consultant with only the vaguest idea of my career stream. And to my knowlege my military experience is ( two tours as an infantry officer ) isn't very likely at all the influence my post. It could do, but given the number of fat-bottomed-RAF-Admin-girls who can't handle a rifle or pass a BPFA going to FHTs for example, I doubt some great mind is at work.

There is a reason for fat bottomed crab ar girls going to FHTs but it has very little to do with terping ability. They will be the bain of your life, they were for me, I had a mucker of mine from H ask for a swap as the one he had taken he had threatened to shoot twice on one op

Like Unlucky_Alf, I'm a bit of a sad bastard. I genuinely do want us to win in Afghanistan. I want to be part of it and think I can contribute. I've been offered tours as an Inf Officer or FAC but I would much rather do so in a way that is intellectually challenging for me, and more likely to be involved in reconstructing Afghanistan and winning the minds of the Afghans I meet than helping to flatten the place and alienate them.

When you get there you will realise what an awesome job being the interpreter is provided you are not tucked away in an office, if you are get out of it. As a COS said to me Mil Terps are for terping not admin as long as you are doing your job it will be justified

There's no career for me, although I live in hope. But its what I want to do. I'd probably do it for less, but I'd rather we as an army simply did the whole thing better.

It could be alot better

Charlie

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:29 pm
Author: CRmeansCeilingReached
very interesting post mate.

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:19 am
Author: steinlagerXV Location: Cambodia with my montagnards
There is alot right with the place but also alot wrong with it as well. The biggest problem theyhave with Dari and Pashtu is the lack of resources, but what can we expect from a country stuck in the 16th Century. The permanent staf teachers are fantastic, the contracted teachers are variable.

But the DJC terps is a fantastic role, so I'm going to sign up for Dari, then Pashtu, it could be a career choice, but there is no will from the powers that be, even though as we know Dannatt delivered his shopping list including the requirement for more interpreters.

Those people on the dark side really do need to get their house in order, the guys and girls are needed on the ground, not stuck in a darkened room in an airfield. I needed an extra 30 at one point, we staffed it and the Darkside hierarchy came out with a no, even though I had just seen more than number pass through DSL in the last year. I used to give the dark siders loads of chances to get out and about - the DC was on another Arabic course at the same time as me, we got on - the guys and girls loved it, especially the RAF ones for some reason! (Possibly exposure to proper soldiering? I'm open to suggestions.)

But the attrition rate is huge, of all the guys and girls I know who have done the language courses from DJC TA and Reg, the amount staying in both TA and Regs is palpable, of the four courses I knew people on I can count those you are still wearing blue, sky blue or green kit on one hand. No not all of them are working the private sector now, infact only one is. Reminds me of when 14 Sigs had a 90% sign off rate! IMOH it cannot represent value for money, it costs over£100000 to train one linguist to level 4.

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:42 am
Author: devexwarrior Location: In the back bar of the Ship Inn
Steinlarger

Some very interesting points in your posts-so much so that for the very first time I actually made notes before replying, rather than hit quote and have the world's longest post.

To try and answer some of the points (personal views only-not reflecting policy) bearing in mind that I have a long language background and experience of DSL as both student and staff.

DJC are not the only customer and DSL does not consider one group "more important" than the other. DSL responds to the SOTR which is based on customers' percieved needs. Whilst producing linguists tailored to the job is not DSLs remit, the profile taught is matched where posible to the needs of the customer-bearing in mind that in any given class the students may be going to vastly different jobs. There is a lot of work going on at the moment in this area.

Your point about the ease with which Eurpoean and long established langages is taught is true, but DSL has been teaching these languages for years and there is a plethora of material available. It is not easy to work up a language course from scratch-for one of the "new" languages there is only one definitive reference book available and that was written in the 19th century!

Your points about Westminster are spot on and you will not find anyone who disagrees with you. All I can say is nothing lasts for ever but changing your method of assessment is not easy and getting anything that replaces it accredited is extrememly difficult-ask any Educator how much effort goes into Accreditation.

Student commitment levels are high, as you observe. As to methodology the classroom approach is what we use, the "holistic" approach which you suggest might work for some students but not for all and all the timetables I see have large segments of consolidation and tutorial time built in.

Native speakers are not the be all and end all of language training....Wayne Rooney, David Beckham and the Pikey Chav on the corner are all native English speakers.............'nuff said.

As for some of the other points raised. Non-attendance, any non-attendance without good reason that is reported to the DSL CoC is dealt with exactly the same as it would be in any other unit. "Fat women going to FHT posts"- DSL has no say in who goes to what job, though the staff can make recommendations to sponsors based on what they see of the individual's physical and mental make up-I know this happens because I have done it.

Just to reiterate, no cutomer is more important than the others. The linguists who do not deploy directly may be just as vital to the operation as the man or woman on the ground.

and on that note I climb off my smal soap box and go for a lie down in a darkened room (far too much intelectual effort for a Friday morning in half-term)

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:25 am
Author: Fraser

steinlagerXV:

...Those people on the dark side really do need to get their house in order, the guys and girls are needed on the ground, not stuck in a darkened room in an airfield. I needed an extra 30 at one point, we staffed it and the Darkside hierarchy came out with a no, even though I had just seen more than number pass through DSL in the last year. I used to give the dark siders loads of chances to get out and about - the DC was on another Arabic course at the same time as me, we got on - the guys and girls loved it, especially the RAF ones for some reason! (Possibly exposure to proper soldiering? I'm open to suggestions.)

That comment is a bit naive and shows a lack of understanding of the strategic importance of what many of our linguists do. A former Director once stated that whilst the young OPMI(L)s might want to deploy on operations, their UK-based roles are strategically more important and therefore priorities are set accordingly.

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:18 pm
Author: steinlagerXV Location: Cambodia with my montagnards
valid points I shall elaborate and try and get the italics in the right places.

Some very interesting points in your posts-so much so that for the very first time I actually made notes before replying, rather than hit quote and have the world's longest post.

To try and answer some of the points (personal views only-not reflecting policy) bearing in mind that I have a long language background and experience of DSL as both student and staff.

DJC are not the only customer and DSL does not consider one group "more important" than the other. DSL responds to the SOTR which is based on customers' percieved needs. Whilst producing linguists tailored to the job is not DSLs remit, the profile taught is matched where possible to the needs of the customer-bearing in mind that in any given class the students may be going to vastly different jobs. There is a lot of work going on at the moment in this area.

Perceived Needs, who comes up with them? If it’s the customer then it is a mute point that requires greater co-operation/communication between those deploying, the deploying agency and the school. Then again no two tours are the same. I agree that tailoring individual needs is a non-starter mainly because of the wide remit of roles, regardless of sponsoring agency. I know that the staff carry out a huge amount of reviewing and trying to get the balance right, which is never ending, tedious and time consuming. When they get it right and it works it is noticed.

Your point about the ease with which European and long established languages is taught is true, but DSL has been teaching these languages for years and there is a plethora of material available. It is not easy to work up a language course from scratch-for one of the "new" languages there is only one definitive reference book available and that was written in the 19th century!

Agreed I think I made that point, Arabic being an exception as we have been teaching that for years as well, but Pashtu and Dari are way behind, only through the fault of circumstance, the only way to counteract it would be to exhume the second Afghan war veterans and glean all their expertise, but that isn’t going to happen.

Your points about Westminster are spot on and you will not find anyone who disagrees with you. All I can say is nothing lasts for ever but changing your method of assessment is not easy and getting anything that replaces it accredited is extrememly difficult-ask any Educator how much effort goes into Accreditation.

Again I am aware of the difficulties of getting new accreditation, but the disconnect between the assessor and what is being taught at DSL is huge and clearly the balance needs to be redressed but with all the trials and tribulations I can appreciate the obstacles.

Student commitment levels are high, as you observe. As to methodology the classroom approach is what we use, the "holistic" approach which you suggest might work for some students but not for all and all the timetables I see have large segments of consolidation and tutorial time built in.

I don’t agree with the holistic approach that may have been Charlie Cong’s post, I have learnt all my languages in a classroom, getting out and about using them is just a bonus, but it reinforces what is being taught. You need to be doing self consolidation/ homework as well in my case I was doing an hour and a half a night.

Native speakers are not the be all and end all of language training....Wayne Rooney, David Beckham and the Pikey Chav on the corner are all native English speakers.............'nuff said.

But don’t forget that face to face out and about you will invariably end up with Pikey Chav on the corner, it is of some use. Plus the native speakers at DSL aren’t going to be David Beckham they are invariably educated individuals.

As for some of the other points raised. Non-attendance, any non-attendance without good reason that is reported to the DSL CoC is dealt with exactly the same as it would be in any other unit. "Fat women going to FHT posts"- DSL has no say in who goes to what job, though the staff can make recommendations to sponsors based on what they see of the individual's physical and mental make up-I know this happens because I have done it.

The individual I mentioned was at logger heads with the OC both of equal rank, I’m not going to enter that tiff. As for Fat Birds for FHT, there does appear to be a high number of girls that go there, not an issue with my course we were all guys. But there is an issue of ownership which was the bain of my life.

Just to reiterate, no customer is more important than the others. The linguists who do not deploy directly may be just as vital to the operation as the man or woman on the ground.

and on that note I climb off my smal soap box and go for a lie down in a darkened room (far too much intelectual effort for a Friday morning in half-term)

A very measured reply and informative thanks

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:22 pm
Author: steinlagerXV Location: Cambodia with my montagnards
Fraser

I’m basing this on what many of the linguists who end up at 14 Sigs tell me. I agree that the strategic part is just as important, but if the linguists (not just OPMI(L)) can be used in a more operationally constructive way other than track bashing or being subjected to the scalie’s dogma of Bull s*** baffles brains, then I think they should.

I even heard arumour that one had never deployed, out of choice, crying off and generally just having a bloody good sook, and that should not be the case or acceptable.

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:55 pm
Author: CRmeansCeilingReached
steinlager, i'm having real trouble working out who said what in your posts, or finding your replies. i think you've made a valuable contribution and i wouldn't want your thoughts to be lost in the muddle.

try experimenting with the "quote" function on the right of the post you want to quote. during editing, if you want to break up their post into bite-size chunks, you can bracket their words with (no spaces): [ quote ] THEIR WORDS [ /quote ] .

then it will look like this:

Quote:

THEIR WORDS

hope this helps.

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:58 am
Author: steinlagerXV Location: Cambodia with my montagnards
Understood, I just like taking things apart bit by bit, I was a ligthsider before becoming a languages freak, but I am also a locks geek, very adept at getting through them, mis-spent youth and a locksmith trained Dad etc. In fact Herford section misappropiated the tools of my "trade" whilst I was in Iraq a long time ago.

My most recent posts on this thread; the first the italics function wasn't making but sense to me, but cracked it for the third, and the 2nd + 4th were just straight replies. Hope that clears things up for you.

Re: Linguist training

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:35 am
Author: CRmeansCeilingReached
for the purposes of demonstration:

steinlagerXV:

Understood, I just like taking things apart bit by bit

you can do that far more clearly using the quote function.

Quote:

I was a ligthsider before becoming a languages freak, but I am also a locks geek, blah blah

see? can still take things apart bit by bit.

Quote:

My most recent posts on this thread; the first the italics function wasn't making but sense to me, but cracked it for the third, and the 2nd + 4th were just straight replies. Hope that clears things up for you.

nope, not really. you might know who said what, but it's not obvious to the reader. trust me, this way is far easier to read and understand. i explained the mechanics above. click "quote" on this post and you can see the commands used.

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