Now that's the interesting bit. I can't see where that comes from - maybe a police disciplinary rule - but let's take it as read. Presumably the authority cops then rely on is the authority anyone would have in the circumstances to help another maintain their rights (rather than a statute that specifically empowers the police) - you could help your neighbour eject someone from their home, if they refused to leave. And yet (unlike the citizen) the cops choice is constrained by their positive obligation to assist. Almost as if they are obliged by police rules to momentarily cease to be constables. What you have are cops helping to eject people, but not qua cops in the act.

God, I love a wanky distinction

My sympathies to you & your family, CJ. Alas chavs being able to flout the law has been around for a lot longer than the period they've been given that monicker.

In the mid-90's I returned home from work to find a yoof sitting on my front doorstep complete with can of Tennants and roll-up smoke. When I asked him to move on, he got abusive, and when I suggested, more firmly, that he to do one, he took a swing at me. Luckily, I managed to duck it, at which point he did take off, with me in pursuit. But pursuit in a pinstripe doesn't work, so I abandoned that & called the police instead.

They advised me that, although I was able to ID the bloke to them, and that he was already known to them, were I to press charges, the chances were that we would both be bound over, and in the case of a return fixture I could well end up with a criminal record.

I thought this sucked the big one back then, and I still do today when anyone else has a similar experience. But Kevin Bridges' perspective on chav aggression makes me giggle & I hope it will do the same for you, if the nerves aren't still too raw. Start at about the 1'43" mark.

Obligatory mong-spelling edit completed

There is no end of alarmist shyte talked about the subject raised by the OP, by people like the Chocolate Frog.

The rubbish they spout conforms with their own stupid view of the world but bears absolutely no relevance to the real one.

Unfortunately the idiots make so much noise that it genuinely confuses the ordinary citizen who, when faced with a difficult situation, is unsure of how to act.

You are allowed to defend yourself to the max, absolutely, whatever you need to do, fill your boots, turn savage, but once the threat has passed you must stop, simple.

And I defy any of the above nobs to come up with a real example where someone was genuinely in fear of being hurt and were sucessfully prosecuted for defending themselves.

(T)hat eccentric nutter Peter Martin does not count because he was not defending himself, he was lying in ambush.

Attacking someone after the immediate threat has passed is, however, illegal. Again, very simple.

As ever I am open to persuasion, but I am certain the above is true and if you are defending yourself then the level of force is set by the defender as he perceives the situation to be - EVEN IF HE IS MISTAKEN.

So if you come down stairs in the night and find someone holding a broom handle, mistake it for a sword and then blow him out of his burgling boots with a 12 bore the fact that you were wrong about the danger you were in does not matter, you are still fine under the law.

Moving on the following is a good point made to me by a prison officer and although I believe he is correct you have to bear in mind he is Scottish and tends to nurse and polish a grievance like a personal treasure.

It involves handing out slaps to young toerags. He tells me that what the public know as the 'Sex Offenders' list is actually a list of people who commit Schedule One offences against children - which includes both sex and violence.

So when you wander out of the pub to find some hooded yob has just keyed your car you really must not follow your instinct by smashing him straight in the face.

Because by the time the 14 year-old little darling has had his jaw re-set and his teeth fixed your name will be nestling beside the peados on the list of those who have inflicted Schedule One offences on children and young people. Bloomin outrageous, really.

What I do not know is just how far you are able to go to town on somebody who has stolen your property and refuses to give it back.

For example if someone who has just nicked your car radio refuses to hand it back but simply says 'come and get it' can you wade in with all guns blazing and keep going until he is unconcious enough to let go of your goods?

Does the law allow any violence under these circumstances?

BTW, a Japanese police officer is not allowed to tell a lie - so many tricks of the trade that are regarded as standard by Western cops, such as under-cover work and sting operations, are outlawed in the Land of Nippon.

Edited to repeat the challenge in my opening remarks.

I've just read S143, and had a look at a book on police law, and if this is the only legislation then (at the risk of boring on) the cops don't have a right to eject people from licensed premises. What they have is an obligation to "assist" a specified class of people eject someone in a narrowly defined set of circumstances - the person is drunk or disorderly, or (presumably) both. So, absent the staff's request, or absent drunkness or disorder, (the staff request but you don't see drunkeness or disorder) the cops cannot act to eject. What "assist" amounts to is a whole nightmare of complexity - the Act must be read as a whole, consistent with HRA and other acts........arguably being present to prevent a breach is the only "assistance" a cop can engage in.

Now (and relevant to the thread) dare to make this distinction to cops (especially as a trainee cop) and I'll bet you're a "dick", "knobhead", "logic chopper", "difference splitter".....

Tell cops that it was only recently that making off without payment became arrestable by constables, although it was arrestable by citizens, and they think you daft.

The assumption is that they are all-powerful, citizens are powerless, it stands to reason that there can be no set of circumstances in which a cop could be less powerful than a citizen, and so on.

This is the mentality that allows cops to believe that there is (or is not) a "citizen's arrest". In fact, there is only "arrest" and "a constable's arrest" - arrest predates (and postdates) the contabulary, but that ain't the culture.

Consequently, a pissartist throws things at you in the street and you are worried about what the cops will do to you should you apprehend them. Only in Britain...

The Police National Legal Database says:

Failure to leave licensed premises
The personal licence holder or their agents are responsible for the
conduct of people when inside their licensed premises. Section 143
of the Act provides that a person who is drunk and disorderly
commits a summary offence, if they fail without reasonable excuse
to leave the relevant premises or they enter or attempt to enter after
being requested not to enter the relevant premises at the request of:
• a police constable
• any person who works at the premises, whether paid or
unpaid, in a capacity which authorises them to make such a
request
• the premises licence holder or
• the designated premises supervisor (if any) under the
premises licence.

That is not Obligation to assist mate, that is a clearly defined summary offence which in the age of Section 24 (5) of PACE means that like all offences these days, its arrestable.

Now please stop with this "Bobbies refuse to believe citizens have powers" lark. You're not a Citizen, you are a crown subject, you do have power and nobody can take them away. There is no assumption that the Police are all powerful... If there was any one of Peels principles repeated whilst I was in training it was this:

"The Police are the Public and The Public are The Police." Without the assistance of the public in the detection of crime and the apprehension of offenders The Police would not cease to exist but the job would be made ten times harder... Now do stop assuming. We all know the story about it making an ass out of U and Me

It was actually written above the door to one of the first lecture rooms you go into until it was taken down and some tosh about diversity was put in its place.

Stop regurgitating this crap about all bobbies are out to lock up the victim. I think the majority of people realise this is not the case, even when they read ridiculous stories in the papers about "Have a go Heroes" (Who more than likely stamped on the offenders head).

The Japanese police are useless at most times. The uniformed variant are little more than traffic cops and directions givers. They will also stop and search people on the street (especially if you are not Japanese or 'professional looking' westerner). I saw one last night at a crossroads, he was a big fat old boy and he was stopping cyclists to warn them about having no lights. More than one person just sailed on past him at full speed whilst he huffed and puffed in indignation. It was actually very funny.

Plenty of them are corrupt and in the pay of local Yakuza so a blind eye is given to many activities, especially dodgy hostess bars etc. They may mount a token raid or two but not on the Yakuza clubs obviously. It is said, for this reason, that Roppongi police station is the most lucrative posting that a policeman can receive.

You are right though, if you are arrested for something then you should be worried. There is a 99% conviction rate here - which has little to do with guilt in many cases. You can be held for 23 days without being charged - and this can be extended to 28 I believe. I know 2 guys who have been arrested and they will hold you for the full 23 days regardless (both were released without charge after the full 23). They tell me that immense pressure is put upon you to sign a confession (in Japanese) - after which its a done deal.
I am reliably told that a Japanese prison is really not somewhere that you want to be either. They are highly regimented, work is compulosry for 8 hours a day (during which time you cannot speak to anybody else), cells are shared and cramped - smokers get one 10 min smoke break a day - and the lights are on 24 hours. Speaking in any other languange than Japanese (including with visitors) is prohibited. If you do not speak the language then tough.

British prisons could learn a lot

All you need to know:

Er.....the stick's over here, mate.

S143 - "(4) On being requested to do so by a person to whom subsection (2) applies, a constable must—
(a) help to expel from relevant premises a person who is drunk or disorderly;"

The interesting question is what this amounts to.

On the subject of how the cops perceive themselves (and again, locating the actual stick), you said earlier that the doorstaff have the same powers as the police. No - they have vastly greater powers. My claim is that the failure of cops to understand this (and it would be impolite to suggest where such a failure might be readily seen ] is indicative of a general attitude.

Imagine a soldier walking down the street, hackle on headgear. Ned/Chav makes a remark. Soldier walks over, "Sorry, mate, what did you say?"

"You heard, brush head".

"Listen, son, I expect to be able to walk down the street without listening to any snash from you or anyone else. Wind your neck in".

Kid becomes aggressive, soldier kicks the legs out from under him, arm up his back, cops arrive.

What happens next? You, I, and everyone else know that the soldier is getting charged with assault.

Now imagine cops walking down the street. "Oi, tithead" says our chav.

What do the cops do? Challenge, kick legs out from under, arrest.

It is absolutely hardwired into the culture that the public are expected to tolerate behaviour which the cops themselves would not tolerate for one second.

A female burns herself and her disabled daughter to death, and most of the stuff she has complained about is "not a police matter", and she has an "unrealistic expectation of what the police can do". Yet if the same kids tried it on the cops what would happen?

The police really need to avoid documentaries. Last night's "The Farce", for example. Jesus, did you see it? F*ckmegently. Was anybody there doing a 40-50k job? There was a Home Office report in the 90's which included the following pearl (in essence) - "There is a perception that there are very few bright policemen". Now that's obviously false, but what seems true is that if a cop is bright it's a bonus, not a requirement. You could have turned up as a civilian with no training and bluffed your case as a detective in the "Crystal" rape unit. There is no similarly remunerated job where this would be possible.

A mate of mine was in a similar situation. Alec is an ex-Royal who got heavily into bodybuilding after he left the Marines; a nice guy but a real Roidosaurus. He could Bench 165k.

Alec looks out his window and sees a teenager sitting in his garden, drinking beer.

Alec: "Get the fcuk out of my garden, son."

Ned: "Fcuk you!"

Alec picked the kid up like a sack of potatoes and threw him over the garden hedge. On to the pavement.

The Ned limps off crying and threatning to get his dad. About half an hour later, someone starts banging on Alec's front door. He answers it to find an angry Daddie Ned.

Daddie Ned: "Did you throw my laddie over your hedge?!"

SMACK!!!

Alec(to now barely concious and heavily bleeding Daddie Ned)"Aye."

Of course, he had to be a muscle bound Royal and not an RLC postie.

For a civilian trolley collector you have an unhealthy obsession of all things military.

IIRC, the incident in question involved driving into someone's front wall by a country road. No other vehicles/people were involved, which was why the question was raised. Had this not been related to a murder, no-one would have given a crap.

edit- my video chopped off the last 5 minutes. Did the barsteward admit it or what?

Gobby - You're full of sh1t and you won't listen, I don't know where you think you have gained your authentic experience on the subject but it must be on another planet.

There is more to the Police than meets the eye and not everyone who gives Summary Justice to a chav gets in bother as the media have you believing. People who take the p1ss and go too far get locked up and rightly so as if a bobby did it people like you would have a fit if they weren't sacked and buried alive.

If the soldier was within his right to defend himself then fine. If he got Judo on the chavs arrse and started leathering him the he needs punishing. Although I can confidently say without doubt that 90% of Police officers would extend the same courtesy to a soldier in uniform as they would another police officer as the vast majority see soldiers, sailors and airmen as very disciplined crown servants who are to be respected. Hence the Poppy appeal pot in our briefing room has been supplemented by its second coffee jar.

They also don't forget the little things such as the medic who ran over and helped the bobby getting a kicking off Rangers fans. A point which was raised during my last public order course and which everyone was reminded about when they Help For Heroes Tin went round.

(Disclaimer: Bobbies in Garrison towns tend not to have their head in the clouds re soldiers as they see what happens when you get them drunk and wind them up)

Last edited by Closet_Jibber on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:20 pm; edited 2 times in total

He admited it to his cell mate whilst on remand and then hung himself

I'm tempted to say, "Like, whadevverrrrrr: google "mooting", and recognise that (much like watching starships on fire off the shoulder of Orion), it's something you'll never experience".

But christ, this is the kind of sh*t that puts Arrse on its arse. Nothing will put a bullet in an internet bulletin board better than people investing their identities in their postings.

This is kibbitzing dude

You don't know me and I don't know you. I haven't annoyed you by not listening, I've annoyed you by reading things closely, and you think an implication of that is that you've somehow lost........what, face, money, the good opinion of...........who exactly?

Any number of people have noted the change in police culture that followed the panda car and the personal radio. My suggestion is that the attitude cops have to their powers - and the respective powers of citizens - also supports that thesis. Cops find it completely counterintuitive that a citizen could ever have more power than they do.

Just as you (seem) to. I mean, do even you think that this thread is is evidence for my not "listening" (ie paying attention)?

The Americans say, "Live free, or die". The motto for W2 should be, "Provide meaningful content or log off; in a cream puff if needs be"

Do you really think that is what I think anyone should do? Or what I beleive will happen? Obvously it will if so minded lawyers get involved, and the samariton appears to be the one that usually gets stuffed by the authorities.... gran poking a teenager?, man telling chav scum to get off wall or stop smashing up his car? Can't really be bothered to look for the examples, but there does seem to be a trend for people finding themselves in court defending what should have been spotted for what it was in the first place, and nothing further said by the Police or CPS>

Is not more shocking that we should be in a position where such actions are neccesary?

I disagree with your assessment of Tony Martin. He had been harrasedand intimidated by scum, and driven to his wits end. The Police did nothing.

Something was happen in the end.

Why wasn't young innocent fred barrass arrested and banged up for his previous crimes? Or the Fagin like older males who took him on his final job?

PS This is t'internet mate, don't pretend to know by true beleifs by what I post on ArRSe. I like to bate people.

He he.

Thanks, Gaijin. Opened my eyes.

Does Tokyo still have a Nails Riot Police? They used to have a fearsome reputation; recruits had to study a Japanese Martial Art, like Yoshinkan Aikido, full time for a year before they could start their duties.

As I understand it, the point of the training was not so much to learn martial arts as to push the recruits to their physical and mental limits. Instructors were free to beast the Riot Police recruits as much as they liked.

I liked the SA Police in Jo'burg in the 80's. I used to buy powder and primers from gun shop on Market Street. One of the guys who worked there (Tim? Ian? I forget but he was from Whitby in N. Yorks) was going home one Saturday lunchtime (Saturday = half day). He got off the bus in his nice middle class suburb, walked round the corner and was attacked by two people of the type who would shortly be classed as 'first-time voters'.

One came at him with a knife over-arm. Whitby guy blocks, pulls out the .45 in his belt holster and slots both between the eyes in about 1 second. The SAP came along and said "Yuss, that's only bloody good shooting, eh?"

Classic self-defence, but the poor guy was a bucket after that and I believe he went back to England.

I know a bloke who was a Jo'burg cop in the eighties and off-duty(and unarmed - god knows why) he sees this black bloke, probably mentally ill, running about the street with a blade doing everybody he can get a hold of. Our man says, "I had to lock me a wee daughter in the car and go into a garden to get a brick to knock him out". When men were men. I wouldn't have fancied it.

Popped out for lunch a few weeks ago.

Walking up Broughton Street in Edinburgh I was stopped by a "young man". He was in his 20s/30s, unshaven, unwashed, and stank of booze - in a right state.

Sob story followed.

Need money for a train ticket to Aberdeen.....just got out of the cells.....on bail, to appear in court.....had enough of this town, want to head back up North

Pointed "young man" in the direction of the homeless charity place along the road and legged it....thought it most likely any contribution to said "train fare" would disappear up arm or down throat.

Went to the nearby police station (10 minutes walk) as it occured to me that the bloke might harm himself, someone else or might actually be bailed for an offence, possibly even kicked out of the very same police station earlier.

After ringing the little buzzer and waiting for ages, someone turned up, a civvie receptionist. They weren't interested....only if the lad was posing an actual danger to himself or others. Presumably they would go to the trouble of issuing a warrant and getting someone to lift him in Aberdeen if he failed to appear in court (if that was true). Didn't even note it down.

Don't bother being a good citizen. They aren't interested.

The civilian staff on the front desk have got to be experienced to be believed. I had a prick sitting next to me on the subway arguing with his partner, Cider woman, as to which station he could get off at. "Ah cannae get aff at Govan. Ah've goat warrants at Govan. Remember I did "Namewithheld" wi an axe etc. We'll need tae get aff at...."

So I jumped off at the next stop, quick call I thought, let's enforce the warrant. We've ten minutes, we know his first name, his partner's first name, his offence, the name of the victim, a good description, where he will be.....

I got nowhere, and when I tried to follow it up at the station I had Epaulette Walt, Twatoftheyear, trying to gain kudos with the back office cops by calling me all sorts when he didn't realise I could hear. I set him straight when he reappeared. Civilian staff on the front desk of police stations, all-but untrained........a serious false economy. They should at least trawl the personnel files for an unemployed Special and employ them.