Now that I like, Markintime. If you maybe could just correct the spelling of F-Ü-H-R-E-R, it'd be optimal.

The word "fürher" is very old and went the way of "fürwahr" and "ward" a long time ago. It was replaced by expressions such as: "bis anhin" or "bislang".

MsG

What about plain and simple Künt? If the cap fits (and it does on ole TB!)

I think it will go to Jan Peter Balkenende.
Blair might get the foreign air miles job.

The Grinning One as President of the EUSSR?

Now I've another reason to vote No this evening.

Doesn't matter really, non of us get a say do we?

At the risk of turning this into a sensible discussion, these are the possibles:

Tony Blair:
Former British Prime Minister (1997-2007)
Middle East peace envoy on behalf of UN, EU, US & Russia
Labour
+
Most charismatic among the candidates
Most popular throughout Europe
-
Too close to Washington
Supported US-led war in Iraq
His country is outside the euro zone and Schengen

Jean-Claude Juncker:
Prime Minister (since 1995) and Finance Minister (since 1989) of Luxembourg
President of the Eurogroup
Christian Democrat
+
Extremely experienced
Knows the EU dossiers better than anyone
-
Not very popular outside his small country
Too federalist

Bertie Ahern:
Former Irish Prime Minister (1997-2008)
Centrist
+
Experienced
Mild-mannered
Charismatic
-
Accused of financial wrongdoing

Wolfgang Schüssel:
Former Austrian Chancellor (2000-2007)
Christian Democrat
+
Experienced
Has the backing of Germany
-
Not very popular outside Austria
Featured in coalition with extreme right Freedom

Angela Merkel:
Chancellor of Germany (since 2005)
Christian Democrat
+
Extremely popular
Considered the most influential leader in Europe
Last but not least, a woman
-
Does not seem to have any intention of stepping down as chancellor

Guy Verhofstadt:
Former Prime Minister of Belgium (1999-2008)
Centrist
+
Experienced
The most visionary of the candidates
-
Too federalist

Felipe González:
Former Prime Minister of Spain (1982-1996)
Socialist
+
Seen as the symbol of Spain's successful EU accession in 1986
Already obtained EU leaders confidence when appointed chairman of the Reflection Group on the Future of Europe
-
Risk of 'Iberian overload' with José Manuel Barroso,a Portuguese, re-elected as Commission president for the next five years
González's role in Spain's counter-terrorism actions against ETA in the 1980s

Paavo Lipponen:
Former Finnish Prime Minister (1995-2003)
Social Democrat
+
Fits both 'geographical' and 'political affiliation' criteria to counter Barroso
-
Has been working since August 2008 as a consultant for Gazprom on Nord Stream project;
Poland has already objected to his potential candidacy

Carl Bildt:
Swedish Foreign Minister (since 2006)
Former Prime Minister of Sweden (1991-1994)
Centre-right
+
Experienced
Extraordinary record in crisis management
-
Seen by France as favourable towards Turkey's EU accession
Also seen as possible High Representative for Foreign Affairs, a less senior post

Poul Nyrup Rasmussen:
President of the Party of European Socialists
Former Danish Prime Minister (1993-2001)
Social Democrat
+
Seen as a champion of full employment during the last European election campaign
-
Lost national elections to another Rasmussen, Anders Fogh, who has since become NATO secretary-general
Actively campaigned against Barroso, with whom he would need to work in tandem if elected

Herman van Rompuy:
Prime Minister of Belgium (since 2008)
Christian Democrat
+
His Belgian experience shows he is a good troubleshooter
-
Not a very good communicator
Little international prominence

Jan Peter Balkenende:
Prime Minister of the Netherlands (since 2002)
EPP
+
Long-serving prime minister
His party CDA is still popular after many years in power
-
EPP affiliation is not suitable as a counterbalance to Barroso
Balkenende is seen as being from the pro-Iraq war camp
The Netherlands is isolated on issues like unblocking Serbia's EU association agreement, just one example of its 'tough' line on EU policies

Mary Robinson:
Former President of Ireland (1990-1997)
Former UN Commissioner for Human Rights (1997-2002)
Independent
+
As a woman with remarkable international experience, she is seen as a strong candidate for the top EU job
-
Ireland is responsible for significantly delaying the Lisbon Treaty's entry into force, so an Irish EU president may not be considered a wise choice

Tarja Halonen:
President of Finland (since 2000)
Social Democrat
+
As a woman from a northern country and from the centre-left, she is seen as a good counterbalance to Barroso
-
She is seen as a pacifist and openly opposes NATO, while most EU countries are NATO members

Margot Wallström:
Vice-President of the European Commission responsible for institutional relations and communication policy
Former Swedish Minister for Culture, Social Affairs and Youth
Social Democrat
+
A woman from a northern country and from the centre-left, she is seen as a good counterbalance to Barroso
-
Has already served under Barroso and did not give the impression of working well in tandem with him

Good man!

Well with the notable exception of the UK - other countries voted for their leader, and the leaders will choose what is effectively just their spokesman.

Although he's a non-runner, he'd be absolutely, magnificently marvellous in the role of First President of the EU: Tony Benn! A man who'd utterly define the role.

MsG

as an old-fashioned, honest to God aristocratic champagne socialist. You're right -- that would sum it up entirely.

europa.eu/lisbon_treat...dex_en.htm

This bit may interest you Jagman:

European Citizens Initiative: guidelines for implementation
In case the Lisbon Treaty enters into force, the Commission should put forward proposal to adopt the European citizens' initiative with no delay, says the European Parliament.
The Treaty of Lisbon would introduce the European Citizens’ Initiative (ECI), whereby EU citizens can collect one million signatures, from a significant number of Member States, to ask the Commission to submit a proposal on any matters of competence of the Union.
On Thursday, MEPs approved the report by Sylvia-Yvonne Kaufmann (GUE-NGL, DE), by 380 votes in favour, 41against and 29 abstentions which provides details guidelines for the implementation of the European Citizens' Initiative.
No rejection on political grounds
According to MEPs, A citizens’ initiative should be admissible if concerns an EU competence and it is not contrary to the general principles of the EU.
MEPs also agree that it should not take more then two months since the submission of the ECI for the Commission to decide on its admissibility. Registrations could be rejected only on legal grounds and not on grounds of political expediency, says the approved text.
To be accepted, the request must be supported by at least one million Union citizens, who are nationals of at least one quarter of the Member States, with the number of nationals of each Member State concerned amounting to at least 1/500 of that Member State’s population,
say MEPs.

You just need to get 1 in 500 of Europes population to sign your petition - should not be too hard?

I haven't got a petition! But I get your point.
In principle yes its an excellent idea, a million signatures? I'm not sure there is a realistic prospect of getting that many people to sign up for anything, especially with the provison that signatories must come from at least 7 different nations.
The other proviso that kind of renders it a little toothless is that a petition will be rejected if it is contrary to the general prinicipals of the EU, that pretty much means anything the EU Parliament doesn't like the sound of can be rejected, contrary to the point that nothing can be rejected on political grounds.
Like so many EU ideas, great ideas rendered useless by careful wording. So yes, in principal its a very fine notion but in those few paragraphs are a caveat included to make sure it means nothing.

Last edited by jagman on Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

1 million in total, comprising at least 1/500th each of the population of at least 7 member states? Meaning that, if you only get, say, 21,000 signatures in Belgium, all 21,000 are out.

They might as well have said "twelvty trillion"!

Do the maths: 1/500th of the population of the 7 most populous countries (Germany, France, UK, Spain, Poland, Romania, Netherlands) doesn't even get you to 661,000.

This is not democracy. It's not the soviet union either, but it is not democracy. It allows them to say "a look, we have a pretty construction that looks like the EU can response to popular demand", and then set the bar so high as to make it unattainable. But because most people are innumerate these days, they won't notice.

Might need the spelling of 'Fuhrer' corrected before going into mass production; but I'd buy one!

"Not contrary to the principles of the EU" would include anything with the faintest whiff of Euroscepticism.

Jagman - from reading what was written, the threshold for inclusion in the petition is 1/500th of each member state from which signatures are coming, which must number at least 7, with a total of 1 million.

This is essentially unattainable. 1/500th of the 7 most populous member states looks like this:

DE: 164,436
FR: 128,964
UK: 122,000
ES: 93,324
PL: 76,230
RO: 42,997
NL: 32,944

Total: 660,877

The only way you would realistically achieve the thresholds is an enormous quantity of signatures from one or more of the big countries, plus small numbers which still beat the 1/500th threshold from 5 or 6 of the tiny countries.

And then they'll throw it out anyway as "against the principles of the EU"

Excellent. Any chance you could do that again, without the spelling mistakes and the slogan in the original correct Nationalist Socialist Party order so I can have it made.

See - I am a spelling Nazi!




What? Is that taxi for me?

Yes, reading through your figures it is designed to be pretty much unatainable.
The conditions attatched to what is in principal a good idea are designed to make it meaningless.

The EU Parliament, much the same as our own domestic politicians, have failed to grasp that times have changed over the last couple of years. people do examine what the politicians say and are no longer quite so easily fooled.
Whats your take on this Asacien? I know you presented article but you didn't comment much.
I confess I didn't do the sums but read the smallprint, both are evidently designed to make any petition ineffective/impossible.

I don't really have a take as I'm off to France now - but I think the detail is still to be decided, so perhaps sending Stoatmans figures to your MEP for clarification would be worth a shot?

Here we go again without the spolling mistook



As far as I'm aware it's in the original and correct order but, if it isn't, let me know the correct order and I'll change it.

Sorry to ruin the party - but the huge amount of pressure being put on the Irish by not only the EU, but their own fcuking PM is quite absurd, with terrible tales of disaster for Ireland if it doesn't vote, and bankruptcy etc etc.

I think that, with the added voting fraud to secure it, they will vote 'YES' this time. The reason is - the EU and the bosses of Ireland, and the people backing Bliar cannot afford for it to be a 'no' vote.

Face it folks, or volkes - he's going to be Presidente!