Has anybody got any photos or info on the kit undergoing PECOC trials? I'm particularly interested in what we get in the way of a new sleeping system and load carrying kit.

PECOC Road shows start on the 21 May and will hit a number of units based around 1 Bde, Fleet, CTCRM, Strike etc. Thats the first time people will see it apart from the trial troops and the Project team.

PECOC is down selecting to systems that will be suggested in the main business case. So while people will start seeing what the various systems comprise of the exact manufacturer of each component will not be chosen yet. In the sleeping package there are single and double bags, bivi sheets, hooped bivies, air mats, folding mats etc.

Load carriage is on its 4th version after getting lots of feedback from ops and trialing the first attempts. The latest system has stuff like traditional webbing, assault vests, ops (day) sack, bergan, frag and armour carriers and a plate carrier; its all still being manufactured ready to show people on the roadshows to see if its getting near to what people want.

People can expect to see stuff appearing in internal and external communication soon to start exposing the 'nutty' issues like camouflage patterns, boot systems.

Any leaked photos will only be one of many things being looked at.

When's the in-service date for all this Gucci stuff, then?

First thing to keep in mind is that its got to get past Main Gate, the most important and difficult obstacle in the procurement process. As the sums of money are so large its not far away from Eurofighter and the carriers in how much data needs to be collected.

Officially its the end of 2010 but good stuff is likely to feed straight into ops while some very specific items may feed into core early if there is a specific problem. It might sound a long way off but if it gets the go ahead to buy big it will get trialed by a couple of Bns to shake out the bugs and then it will need manufacturing. You can't make huge quantities of body armour over night.

We could be wearing this stuff until 2025 so getting right is more important than shaving a couple of months off the schedule, that said anything that can benefit current ops will be accelerated into service.

Considering they've still got to get the MOD to cough up for this, 2010 doesn't seem too bad to me.

I had talked to my UK supplier of DPM cordura and asked about new patterns for PECOC ,
They said they had made some fabric for the MOD but that they (The MOD) were not happy with the pattern ,its a Digital type though beyond this I don't know anything more.
I was worried about buying lots of DPM and then the pattern being changed.

Dare I ask what's so wrong with PLCE?

Personally I think it meets most needs. We have most options available to us now; belt kit, vest, chest rig and modular kit for Ops. Looking at what guys are actually wearing in theatre I'm not convinced the new dessie vest has been a resounding success (except on ebay). It seems blokes are taking the few pouches they actually want/need and fitting them direct to the armour cover. And I don't blame them! The bulk of Osprey is bad enough without putting the full modular vest over the top.

I fully accept that there is room for improvement in many areas but is a complete rethink and reissue the way forward? Surely the vast sums of money involved could be distributed further by implementing less radical changes? Is DPM really such a poor pattern? I think there's something to be said for retaining our 'brand image'. Especially when you look at the digital pattern the septics got lumbered with. Effective in a cement factory or quarry but day glow everywhere else. Multi environment my arrse.

Considering budgets; dare I mention UK Medical facilities, aftercare and housing? It is ludicrous to me that we struggle to provide appropriate levels of care for the injured but have the money to spend replacing our No 2 uniforms.

I'm not knocking those working in the system, their contribution is superb, more the self serving 'public servants' who strangle the system of funds in order to buy us new suits!

Having raised my head above the parapet I shall retire to cover and await the incoming.

MOLLE is a good bit of kit, and a suitable replacement for PLCE. Why do we wear Combats in barracks?

Why not get a working dress going again?

Multi environment is the same as any other "multi" item. It usually does everything, but not very well. I don´t think the Forces are in such desperate straights that we need to be able to board a plane in the desert, and come out fighting in Belize or Europe.... Yet

Existing Bergans are fine too. I would suggest, that extra small pouches are needed (a la Arktis (?) Ultimax) I have sewn extra pouches on (well REStitch did). Currently considering adding MOLLE straps to bergan for extra pouches.

One major point about the MOLLE vests, is that they hold the heat in. They are like a waterproof (crisp packet stylee) waist coat. Could the molle straps not be sewn on to mesh?

Also (and I hesitate to say this) but in this modern world of computers (DII and Unicom excepted) is it not about time we could have varible scales of uniform issues?

For example, why issue a tankie or armoured crewman, with a full set of CS 95 and tanksuits, why not issue them with less combats, and allow more use of the tanksuits that they will fight in?

Why are lightweights still held, and wooly pullies and green shirts. Or PT kit. I haven´t worn them in years.

I think MOLLE is an acquired taste. I don't like it much myself, too many extra bits to break, extra weight with the fittings and potentially bulky. It can be difficult to get right too, the Dutch one hangs badly and bags out with any kit in the pouches. I like the idea of pouches direct onto the mesh but I've had a vest like that before and it tore through the mesh. the answer being to put patches of webbing behind the pouches and mesh and sewing to that.

The idea of replacing everything at once fills me with dread. And not just because I'll have to bin my windproof and trops! It seems such a waste of badly needed money and the potential for fcuk ups is immeasurable.

I simply do not see this preoccupation with digital pattern cam. Is it really needed? Or is it merely keeping up with the Jones's? There will be an awful lot of commercial suppliers of DPM kit left with a mountain of unusable/unsellable gear if DPM gets binned. By all means trial new kit, but keep DPM.

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Lots of good points. Some back at ya!!

I agree there is not much is wrong with all the kit you mentioned but everything apart from PLCE and the Bergan is UOR kit. UOR cash dries up and so does the Osprey, Assault vests, Day sack, plate carriers, good boots, thermal mugs, eyewear etc need I go on? PECOC is sweeping all the good kit that is ops funded and putting it into one coherent package that is issued as core. The UOR pot of gold is coming under increasing pressure as we go through a government comprehensive spending review.

Your comments about DPM are valid. Unfortunately to robustly make the argument you need data. Sometimes to get data you have to make the best possible digital patterns from other nations and your own scientists designs and compare it against what you have. You also need to see if what you have can benefit from small changes. So.... just because one material manufacturer says that the IPT is playing with digital it should not be seen as an indication of any change; it may be just proving no change is required. This of course is pure speculation on my part....at least until the roadshows start when I am sure it will be covered.

Medical facilities and new No2 dress? Totally agree..its criminal. Unfortunately, like most IPTs, the DC IPT has to do what its told.

It is a real pleasure to have someone contributing comments to this forum with real comments to make. And in an informed measured manner too!

Interesting point about UOR funds for Osprey and associated kit. Even more interesting that PECOC will (hopefully) take the best from Ops issued kit and make it core. I understand the pressures of Health and Safety coupled with Duty of Care, but it seems madness to me that for every Op tour guys are being issued a complete package of everything, often resulting in duplication. Sure, financially it would make more sense to run that kit the same way we run 95 kit. Personal issue and exchanged when needed. Or am I forgetting army logic as well as preaching to the converted?

Sorry for the delay in replying, I was staring at your Avatar...

The crux of the matter is that for the majority of people the ops bag kit (with the exception of the Mk6a Helmet) should be trashed and on its last legs. The systems requirements all say something about standing up to pre op trg, the 6 month op and then a limited time on recovery. Hence why most of the kit will trashed when we finish our tour.

Its this durability requirement's that allows the IPT to issue 3 very sweat wicking, breathable and lightweight desert uniforms. A trade off is made between durability and performance because sometimes the technical requirements of each differ. So when you get back from an op tour and your arse is just about hanging out of your kit its done its job as designed. The trouble is when people put a set away for the welcome back parade which effectivley means that only 2 thirds of the clothing system is deploying.

That said there are some items that MIGHT be able to be reused and this is especially true of the RAF people who only deploy for 8 - 12 weeks at a time and claim an op back 3 times in the same year. The reason that it doesn't get pursued is to do with funding ie who is paying. If you don't know the UOR rules then don't ask and enjoy the kit!! This is not Army logic its MOD\Government level madness.

The final benefit is that it removes from the unit the mammoth task of checking everyone's kit to make sure its the latest version, in good order and to entitlement. Would you want to deploy again with the old desert boot or in eyewear that doesn't stop the same fragments as the person stood next to you?

I can't blame you, why'd you think I married her?

On a serious note, thanks for the points on Ops issues. I shall now wind in my neck.

Last edited by Lady_Macbeth on Sat May 03, 2008 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

Right fcuk digi cam its gay and a waste of time, lets buy the kit that saves lifes and use the rest of the money to look after our less fortunate mates who don't make it back in one piece! Enough said!

Like those of us who wear glasses have to?

msr

Unless they do this exactly right first time (which would be a glorious first for the Army), we will be lumbered with hundreds of little faults and tens of major ones, and DERA or the DCTA or whoever does kit design these days will be overwhelmed. If a total overhaul of kit is required, then it needs to be staged, so that each class comes out separately (clothing, then load-carrying, then armour etc), meaning that bugs can be ironed out quickly before the new lot is issued. Otherwise, we'll just have a pile of modular stuff lying around, which no-one will have a clue how to use, and the army will grind to a halt as QMs frantically try to organise and issue it, and work out what it all does.

No..... wrong

There is a well used but sometimes misunderstood requirement for all our eyewear to be compatible with corrective lenses. There is a specific set that fits in the lightweight and medium weight ballistic eye protection. Units are told to ensure that all personal deploying to TELIC or HERRICK are fitted and issued with the corrective lens. The specifications are matched to the protective eyewear and tested on the range to make sure the performance is maintained.

The IPT is constantly fighting with units and individuals that get corrective lenses fitted outside of the system. Many opticians have no idea about the tortures that our kit goes through and people have been found in theatre with GLASS corrective lens.

The ESS system was chosen over its rivals, in part, because it could be fitted with one corrective lens in either system instead of two like many of the others.

When someone tells you that the military is not offering anyone with glasses eye protection take a step back and think if that sounds likley...

Merely presenting my experience from TELIC6 (Chilwell) where I had to get the storeman to drag a set of AFV commander's goggles out of the skip.

msr

Clearly you do not wear the respirator lenses then....

msr